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Protruding top lip (PTL) factors



 
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elgin
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Joined: 26 Mar 2010
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Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Protruding top lip (PTL) factors Reply with quote

Some days my PTL is controllable with the roll in, some days not so much. Has anyone documented or discovered any related factors such as hydration, lack of sleep, lip swelling, age, etc? Any experience you could share would be helpful.
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the late response. You mention some control through RI, but I was wondering how you are doing on the RO. Do you manage to get the right focus, as they sound on the CD? I have a PTL and my double pedals have greatly improved after rolling in the top lip a bit while doing RO. More control, more focus, more of a gripping sensation. With regards to getting more control over the PTL, I think RO#3 could be really helpful. See if you can keep it more or less tucked in as you shift back and forth. I hope this is helpful!

Ko
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elgin
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ko
Thanks for the reply.
I studied with Reinhardt back in the late '70s, and I've actually gone back to using his approach. However, Reinhardt never talked about PTL, and BE is the only place that I'm aware of that deals with this issue specifically.

As to your suggestion, pedals were always very easy. I can go down to double pedal C with ease, including going from double pedal C up to double G and higher without a break. My problem occurs when I lose control of the PTL. I lose all compression and tone. The pedals didn't seem to have any effect on PTL. I might mention that my PTL is very narrow from side to side, but the skin there is very soft so that I must tuck it in all the time.

Now that I've identified the issue, my chops are steadily improving as I'm able to sustain the slight RI for longer periods.

Another issue that I have is mouthpiece slippage. It tends to slip down off the top lip. To address that, I bought a hard rubber mouthpiece from Warburton ("Warbonite" Hard Rubber http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/trumpet-cornet-and-flugelhorn-mouthpieces ). It's a new material that has slightly more grip than silver, but not as "sticky" as some of the plastics. The main problem with mouthpiece slippage is that I could never relax into the mp rim. Without relaxation there is no endurance. So, that mouthpiece is also improving my endurance by stabilizing my chops.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: by PTL, do you mean that the ring where chop meets rim falls into the red of your upper lip? And you are able to keep this in the white via consciously engaging a RI?
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elgin
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Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock
In BE terms, PTL is anatomical. A small flap of tissue on the center of the upper lip “protrudes” or flips forward and out when playing and buzzing. Since this is in the exact location of the aperture, it dramatically affects the player's consistency, range, sound, pitch, etc. In many cases, the RI totally eliminates the problem because the RI holds the PTL in, so to speak.

For me, sometimes it flips out, sometimes I can control it. Part of the issue with me is that the PTL is very thin and wide, and my top lip is on the short side. The effect is that even when rolling in, the thin surface of the PTL can protrude. I can hear the PTL going out and back in because the tone AND pitch will abruptly jump up and down with no apparent change whatsoever in my embouchure or jaw position. Sometimes it’s fine, but sometimes holding a soft steady tone in the staff is not possible unless I do an extreme roll in or roll out. Obviously, this is not ideal.

In BE, the INCORRECT way to compensate is to move the mpc lower on the lip to control the PTL. In BE, the CORRECT way to compensate is the develop the RI and move the mpc back up to a higher position on the top lip; preferably above the vermilion.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Elgin, where have you been?

There is yet another good option for dealing with the PTL. You can simply move the mouthpiece to one side, and get off of the protrusion (to some degree). It means not playing centered, which bothers some players psychologically, but the shift really can help.

Jeff
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Wow Elgin, where have you been?

There is yet another good option for dealing with the PTL. You can simply move the mouthpiece to one side, and get off of the protrusion (to some degree). It means not playing centered, which bothers some players psychologically, but the shift really can help.

Jeff


I have quite the upper lip pork chop and this solution, which I think I came upon naturally works fine for me. Sometimes I have issues with the section player to my left but things work out
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elgin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jeff.
I've been revisiting my Reinardt approach with good success. You may remember I studied with him back in the '80s.

I'm finding that contrary to many opinions, there is some overlap between BE and Reinhardt. Reinhardt used different terminology, but he did ascribe to a form of lip curl of both lips to ascend. Anyway, I find that aspects and exercises from BE can be used with my students along with Reinhardt's embouchure tracking, diaphragm levels, tongue arch, etc.

Thanks for the reminder of "avoiding" the PTL. I'd forgotten about that.
Elgin
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elgin -

thanks for getting back to my question! I have the exact same problem, but with my lower lip. The symptoms are of course different.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm finding that contrary to many opinions, there is some overlap between BE and Reinhardt.


Elgin, I agree. Reinhardt could be really stubborn, but he had some BE-like ideas long before I came on the scene.

Jeff
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