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Moving a IIIB's placement higher - switch to IIIA?



 
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Moving a IIIB's placement higher - switch to IIIA? Reply with quote

I'm curious about your experience with this:

If you take a IIIB and make him/her place the mouthpiece just a little bit higher, how likely is it that the placement alone will change their pivot direction? (Without any other instruction.)

(I'm not suggesting this as a corrective procedure, just for the record. I'm mostly curious what happens to, for instance, players who change their placement accidentally, or because a teacher tells them to.)

Will it be all the time, none of the time, most of the time, or completely unpredictable?

What has your experience shown?
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a IIIB, typed by Rich Wiley - see this older video so you can make your own judgement on my type. It is kept as a private YT, as I upload periodically to check progress but rarely to share. Note: older clip chosen to show chops, pivot and playing clearly. I have more recent clips which aren't so clear and are better in tune with fewer clams, but this is truly just a video i made for me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N_1YMiHdaM

I have tried what you say, and my experience:

Higher placement doesn't make me a IIIA - my lower lip won't allow that I don't think. If I pivot like (or try to play like) a IIIA I get poor results.

Over the last couple of years I have moved my placement slightly lower (from maybe about 65:35 to about 55:45) and my pivot is the same, but my endurance and sound have opened up. I have scar tissue on my top lip from an accident as a child, so this may be helping me find my legs better. I also have some marks from playing as a kid with a terrible teacher who never explained this whole playing thing, and so again, lower placement seems to help me. I play like that video, something around 55:45 most times. My placement in that video looks slightly higher than usual. My normal piece is a Marc Ingram, and I was using a Shew Lead there, so maybe that is influencing me.

I could understand switching someone who SHOULD be a IIIA to that method of playing, or even trying that out (note Wayne - a IIIA coincidentally - said in a clinic that he made a slight adjustment to a student's pivot and high Gs started popping out. He also stated that he didn't often, or like, making embouchure adjustments in most cases.)

I have 2 IIIA students, both of whom really benefitted with affirming pivot direction. One was playing as a IIIB and the other was just everywhere/confused. I had a IVA who was playing like a IIIB due to a previous teacher, who now, age 11 and about a 4'11" girl has played quiet Gs above high C. After we assessed her setup.

Anyway, as a IIIB, trying to play like a IIIA is bad for me. It may be the right thing to try on a student, but trying to make a clear IIIB a IIIA won't be good. Not in my opinion.

Mike
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Last edited by bach_again on Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent answer, thank you! (With lots of great advice.)

However, my question is a little different: I may have phrased it poorly.

I'm not asking whether one works better than the other, or which type someone should be. I'm just curious if moving the mouthpiece higher (and making NO OTHER change, at least not consciously) can change a player's pivot type.

Once again, I would most often imagine this happening by accident or due to misplaced advice (a knowledgeable Reinhardt teacher would know to watch for pivot type and hopefully advise the student in a much more informed manner).

(In your case, Mike, it sounds like you know you play best as a IIIB, but also benefit from a lower placement, so your experience doesn't necessarily support or contradict this hypothesis. I think! Yes? A IIIB who started placing higher and thereby locked in their pivot even more would be a clear counter-example, for instance.)
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul T. wrote:
Excellent answer, thank you! (With lots of great advice.)

However, my question is a little different: I may have phrased it poorly.

I'm not asking whether one works better than the other, or which type someone should be. I'm just curious if moving the mouthpiece higher (and making NO OTHER change, at least not consciously) can change a player's pivot type.

Once again, I would most often imagine this happening by accident or due to misplaced advice (a knowledgeable Reinhardt teacher would know to watch for pivot type and hopefully advise the student in a much more informed manner).

(In your case, Mike, it sounds like you know you play best as a IIIB, but also benefit from a lower placement, so your experience doesn't necessarily support or contradict this hypothesis. I think! Yes? A IIIB who started placing higher and thereby locked in their pivot even more would be a clear counter-example, for instance.)


Oh - I'm sorry, I totally misinterpreted your question!

So when I move placement higher I stay IIIB, but my sound and playing suffers. When I was experimenting with larger gear I would gravitate to a much higher placement, and I think that was subconsciously to reduce the vibrating width of my chops to what I was used.

When I place very very low I don't change to IV of any sort - I have to make a very conscious effort to do make that change, and this also doesn't work for me.

Actually I had a MASSIVE setback in my playing when I picked up "Casual Double High C" when I was 18. I had nice high Fs back then but was assured that this method would integrate into my playing. Well it taught me to play upstream for upper register. Sure I played some very high awful sounding notes, but being misguided I figured I had to stick at it to see changes & not be lazy. Well above high C I was swapping to upstream and I forget when, but I worked out that this crutch was making my chops incredibly weak. I decided never to play like that again and my range had gone from a good high F to all kinds of intermittent C-F playing with no real security. It took me YEARS to get past the damage done. I'm sure that if I had a teacher at the time they would have been like WTF are you doing?! Anyway, long story short, my chops feel like they did when I was 18 and my playing has developed and continues to do so, but without these crutches so to speak.

Anyway, Rich Wiley was one of the guys who set me straight. I remember showing him what I was doing, and I think he shared it with Dave Sheetz, and the unequivocal answer was STOP THAT BS!!! Thanks guys - it has taken me years to get back on track.

A lot of useless info there... but I hope I answered your actual question this time - haha!

Mike
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The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU
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Robert Rizzo
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great question. I believe I fall into the IIIB type embouchure category? If I move the mouthpiece placement higher, my downstream air pivot stays more horizontal, and the horn angle is not as low, but playing like this engages my bottom lip, surrounding muscles and my jaw floats. Playing like this diminishes my chop response, pitch security and creates breaks in my register i.e. d in the stave to g above the stave. If I position lower, it makes the air pivot down at a lower angle along with lowering the horn angle. Playing like this helps my jaw fall away, improves chop response, and seems to rid me of any breaks in register. It's very complex, because everyday we are building and improving our set-up but not necessarily on the right track. Personally, I am trying to go with the second set-up I describe here, but lift the horn angle without engaging the jaw. I find this topic really interesting and generally like to forget about all this stuff when I'm performing, just thinking about the music.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't fight Mother Nature.

With that said, I don't think that the mouthpiece placement locations for each type are as strict as you all think. I'm a IIIa that plays in the red of my top lip.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good answers so far. Please keep them coming!
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