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Harry Hilgers
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 Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: deleted |
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dstdenis
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Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Schilke P7-4 Piccolo Questions |
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| Harry Hilgers wrote: | | 1. I would like a strong rigid one-horn case (so not a multi-horn soft gig bag) specifically made for this pic. |
Schilke has a multi case that looks like it would work.
| Quote: | | 3. Mouthpiece. Most my regular trumpet and cornet mouthpieces all have a Schilke 14 rim. Knowing that what would be the recommendation of a pic mouthpiece to start with. |
Schilke 14a4x is most likely, else 14a4. The x backbore is intended for the piccolo, but you'll have to see which one works better for you in terms of the blow and intonation. (I actually get better intonation across octaves with the regular backbore in Schilke pieces, but maybe that's just me.)
Some players like a smaller diameter mouthpiece for picc, but that doesn't work for me. Might work for you though.
| Quote: | | 4. The next question is about holding the horn. ... any suggestions on how to hold the horn? |
I use the right pinky to work the fourth valve. (I don't put my pinky inside the ring either---I rest it on top of the ring on my other horns.)
I sometimes use the fourth valve for alternate fingerings that help me avoid valve combinations that would require me to extend the third valve slide. The 3rd valve slide on my picc works fine, but I sometimes find it easier to use the fourth valve alternates instead.
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bach_again
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Schilke P7-4 Piccolo Questions |
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| Harry Hilgers wrote: | Piccolo Questions:
I have a few pic question I need help with.
Many years ago I played a 4-valve Yamaha pic (the Schilke P5 lookalike). However money issues forced me to sell it.
Fast forward today. I just got my hands on a Schilke P7-4 that appears to be in excellent working condition.
I'd love to try one! I have tried a P5-4 and loved it. I play a Getzen Eterna 940S, which is a short bell picc like the P7-4.
Here are my questions:
1. I would like a strong rigid one-horn case (so not a multi-horn soft gig bag) specifically made for this pic. Any thoughts on this? (I did not see one on the Schilke web page).
Get a Pelican case (I think now called Peli) and use the pluck foam interior to fit the horn. These have a lifetime warranty and are very sturdy.
2. If I can't find that, has any of you used a cornet gig bag for your pic? If so what would be a good sturdy cornet bag?
I wouldn't. I have used my Gard single trumpet case (leather) but only in a real pinch. Felt wrong.
3. Mouthpiece. Most my regular trumpet and cornet mouthpieces all have a Schilke 14 rim. Knowing that what would be the recommendation of a pic mouthpiece to start with.
The 11a4 is always suggested as a first picc piece. I can't comment on that, but I played a friends 14a4a on his P5-4 and it played a dream. I use a Getzen 10 1/2C for most playing and a Curry 30S for higher picc playing. I HATE the Yamaha 14a4a piece - the rim is too wide, the whole piece just seems all out of balance. For me at least. Nothing like a Schilke 14a4a.
4. The next question is about holding the horn. First some background. On my regular trumpets I never use the right hand pinky on the pinky hook. I just hold my right hand thumb on the lead pipe near the first valve; my pinky just sticks up in the air. So I hold the horn up with just my left hand.
I could hold my past Yamaha pic similar to my Bb horns using the left hand index finger to work the 4th valve. However I seem to have a hard time dong this on the P7-4.
Also the fourth valve is offset a little to the right. Based on all this do you have any suggestions on how to hold the horn?
No, sorry. The Getzen has a slightly different layout.
I have a hard time finding a left hand position where I can easily work the third valve slide and use the left index finger for the fourth valve while holding up the horn (remember I am not holding it up with my right hand pinky on the pinky hook). Should I learn to use the right hand pinky for the 4th valve?
Sounds logical. I switch between left hand and right hand for 4th valve. You really don't need much dexterity as the work requiring it isn't hard. I'm sure you would adapt. I'd like the ability to tune my horn, like the P7-4, so I would suck it up 
Thanks so much for any advice you all can give me. |
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jvand678
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Location: TX
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Schilke P7-4 Piccolo Questions |
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| Harry Hilgers wrote: | Piccolo Questions:
I have a few pic question I need help with.
Many years ago I played a 4-valve Yamaha pic (the Schilke P5 lookalike). However money issues forced me to sell it.
Fast forward today. I just got my hands on a Schilke P7-4 that appears to be in excellent working condition.
Here are my questions:
1. I would like a strong rigid one-horn case (so not a multi-horn soft gig bag) specifically made for this pic. Any thoughts on this? (I did not see one on the Schilke web page).
2. If I can't find that, has any of you used a cornet gig bag for your pic? If so what would be a good sturdy cornet bag?
3. Mouthpiece. Most my regular trumpet and cornet mouthpieces all have a Schilke 14 rim. Knowing that what would be the recommendation of a pic mouthpiece to start with.
4. The next question is about holding the horn. First some background. On my regular trumpets I never use the right hand pinky on the pinky hook. I just hold my right hand thumb on the lead pipe near the first valve; my pinky just sticks up in the air. So I hold the horn up with just my left hand.
I could hold my past Yamaha pic similar to my Bb horns using the left hand index finger to work the 4th valve. However I seem to have a hard time dong this on the P7-4.
Also the fourth valve is offset a little to the right. Based on all this do you have any suggestions on how to hold the horn?
I have a hard time finding a left hand position where I can easily work the third valve slide and use the left index finger for the fourth valve while holding up the horn (remember I am not holding it up with my right hand pinky on the pinky hook). Should I learn to use the right hand pinky for the 4th valve?
Thanks so much for any advice you all can give me. |
Hi Harry, congratulations on the new horn. I love both of my P7-4s.
There is no single rigid case made for this horn. I have tried to adapt other cases but the problem is ultimately the long 4th valve slide. You can do the above mentioned pelican case route and remove foam in the shape of the horn. The case I currently use is the Stomvi quad and I place foam blocks around it when carrying multiple horns. When I just need one, I use the wolfpak piccolo trumpet case. I have also used the pro tec cornet case.
I find the Schilke horns to work pretty well with all sizes of mouthpiece, depending on the sound you're chasing. My normal is a 7ew or 7d with a 117 backbore. I also use a 3c or 3d in occasions where I want the horn to sound larger. Those would be roughly your 14 diameter.
I use my left index finger to operate the 4th valve. To facilitate that, I had the ring moved slightly to allow my middle finger to go under the bell more easily.
Best of luck!
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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I went with the pelican case and the pluck to fit foam interior. I sort of doubt I will ever use it all by itself and need to transport it that way but if the need should arise it couldn't be more protective. It usually resides in my coyote 2.5 instead.
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gjarrell
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:46 am Post subject: |
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My two cents are these (and I play a P7-4 myself):
I made the adjustment of playing the 4th valve with my pinky. It's awkward, but you just don't use it that much. So, you work on it while practicing. I used to use the left index on my Yamaha 915, but that was an easier to hold setup. Even that arrangement required effort and practice to coordinate smoothly in performance. I asked my teacher, a GRSO member, and he said he simply used his fourth finger from the start of playing his P5-4. It would have helped if they'd made the valve casings smaller like the old Yamahas.
I don't use the 1st valve slide adjustment at all. I'd rather have a nice tight fit there than push that thing out too far and foul up the whole performance.
I have small hands and use my 3rd finger to operate the third valve slide while resting the bell stem on my index finger knuckle. I'm gripping the horn with my left thumb and index finger. My left pinky is underneath the 4th valve slide.
As for mouthpieces...I've settled on a 3C cup, 25 throat, medium large backbore. I use Wedge mouthpieces. IMO, going extremely shallow just makes the sound ugly. I used to use a 1C rim and 1E cup combination with a 117 backbore - for about 30 years. The current setup required me to adjust to a different sound and feel. One way or another I'm playing and sounding better on piccolo. The 3C cup is shallow enough to provide a little help, but deep enough to allow the tone to be sweeter. Using Kanstul's comparator, the 14B was pretty close to a 3C. Good luck with this aspect.
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: deleted |
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:10 am Post subject: deleted |
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cheiden
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Schilke P7-4 Piccolo Questions |
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1. Sometimes I use a Protec single case and feel it works fine. In your case I might look for some extra foam to fill the void.
3. Everyone's different but I suggest trying something in a Schilke 11 size piece. I find I do better to downsize on the picc. And I don't favor any of the a-cups probably because I have too much lip intrusions. I'm currently using a Yamaha 11B4 (on the Bb I play a Bach 3C rim).
4. As has been said the 4th valve doesn't get used a ton. I'd recommend trying to keep it with your right pinky if you can.
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starkadder
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Joined: 01 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| You might look into the Curry P5 or P7 mouthpiece. I got a P5 when i bought my piccolo trumpet, and my teacher liked it so much better than the Bach mouthpiece he had used for years, he got a P5 and a P7 to try and settled on the P7. |
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:03 am Post subject: deleted |
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cheiden
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Harry Hilgers wrote: | | Yet, sometimes folks will down size for the pic, like cheiden has done. But then, I have always been taught to never alter the rim size. So I have always stuck with 17 mm for 80% of my playing |
I can play my picc with a 3C-size rim and cup, it works fine and I like the sound well enough. So I wouldn't discourage you from trying it. But what I later learned was that I was working too hard and wasn't getting better at a pace I wanted to accept. That's when I made incremental adjustments winding up on a somewhat smaller ID and somewhat shallower cup.
Regarding the orthodoxy of never changing rims, I read someone make the case that if the horn is different enough then it's reasonable to change the mouthpiece. You wouldn't play a trombone with a trumpet mouthpiece. And the picc is a MUCH smaller horn than the Bb so why insist on using the same size mouthpiece.
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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starkadder
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Starkadder, I have a question on the Curry:
My "everyday" mouthpiece is the Schilke 14. It has a diameter of 17 mm.
So should I not consider a Curry 1.25P or 1.5P, as they are also 17 mm? |
I play a curry 3 rim on the trumpet and cornet, but I use the P5. I wish I had got the P7, which is smaller, and I may get one still. If you can get different size mouthpieces on trial, I recommend doing so. |
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kylesherman
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Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I love my p7-4, they're great horns. I've found that a Bach 7ew or a gr64 sized pic piece works well, I didn't like the 11ax even though it's supposed to be a good companion piece. That's just me personally. I have found that 3c sized pieces work pretty well without pushing the horn flat.
I came to the p7-4 from a p5-4, and had used my left index on the 4th valve for that horn. What works best for me is a conventional left hand grip and the use of my right pinky (ring finger when I can) on the 4th valve. 1&4 is probably the only combo in which I use the pinky. C-D trills for example I use the ring finger on 4.
Cronkhite single cornet cases are good for this horn if you only need the single for a wedding or whatever, I carry mine in a brass bag or a reunion blues.
Hope this helps |
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johntpt
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 07 Feb 2002
Posts: 2284
Location: Toluca, Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Harry - I find that those mm measurements regarding mouthpieces are not very helpful. My guess is that the Schilke 14 rim would be closer to a Curry 3, so you might want to try a Curry 3P. As someone mentioned the Schilke 14a4ax is a common picc mouthpiece, as is the 11ax, and both are available in cornet shanks. Stork piccolo mpcs are popular too, and have nice round comfortable rims if you like that sort of thing.
I have quite a collection of cornet picc mouthpieces from over the years, 20 or 25 maybe, all in the 1c rim size range, and frankly the Curry 1p is the best for me. There are others that have a slightly warmer sound, but the Curry has the best balance of ease and sound, even for Brandenburg. I just pick it up and go, no worries.
Enjoy your P7-4! I love mine, too. I have large hands and use the left hand index finger for the 4th valve. My P7-4 is an early one and has the 50th Anniversary stamp on it from 2006, and a Melk alignment which makes it even better.
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johntpt
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Joined: 07 Feb 2002
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Location: Toluca, Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Here's another P7-4 tip: for A try a Reeves A adaptor with the Bb slide pulled out a little. I like the A pipe Schilke sends with the P7-4, but I like the Reeves adaptor more.
JU |
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:23 am Post subject: deleted |
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:29 pm Post subject: deleted |
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:25 pm Post subject: deleted |
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underdog
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Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 392
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: schilke P7-4 |
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Here are my thoughts and recommendations.
I love my P7-4. I have a wiseman triple that I had cut special to fit it. (probably doesn't help you.)
A blackburn pipe really made this horn play even better. I use his tighter Bb pipe that he makes for it and I use a short shank trumpet back-bore. (I believe that he recommends using the standard shank trumpet with only this particular setup, but I have had good luck with the short shank trumpet with his Bb pipe.
I find plenty of resistance to "lean up against" in the horn itself, so I play one of my own PATRICK mouthpieces that has a decently big cup on it, with a slightly tighter backbore. This gives me a good full sound and makes it sound like a bigger horn, but still plays lighter, which I like.
On the left hand, I operate the pinky ring with my ring finger, and I had Charlie melk bend and mess with the thumb saddle on the first valve and I use it a bit. I need heavy grease, and a band around the first and third slide so that they don't bind when I'm using them. You have hardly ANY travel on the first valve slide, but have just a tiny bit if you need it.
With the right hand, I've learned to use the fourth valve with my pinky. Not totally comfortable, but it's the best solution that I've figured out to date. Sometimes when it's higher passages, I'll use the pinky hook if I'm not using the fourth valve.
You've got a wonderful horn.
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