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are larger mouthpieces harder to play higher?


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number juan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:27 am    Post subject: are larger mouthpieces harder to play higher? Reply with quote

I started on a 3c a little more than two years ago and i believe my range is developing okay. I just want to know if playing notes higher than the high C would be easier with a smaller mouthpiece. Don't want to cheat, just wondering cause there are times when i have to hold a high note with a fermata in jazz towards the end of a concert and i want to know if there's maybe a mouthpiece size that can help me a bit with endurance until I can gain enough to last with any mouthpiece.


Don't judge me, i don't have experience when it comes to trumpet equipment
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Martinharris
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is very difficult to play much above high C on a 3C. It is possible, but if you learn how to use something smaller like a warburton 4M, you'll have a much better upper range for longer.
There are so many players using bach C cups who don't need to be using something that deep. If you only play classical fair enough, but for most players, an M cup by GR, warburton or curry is more of an all purpose piece.
There will be many people who will strongly disagree with me, but that's my opinion.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martinharris wrote:
It is very difficult to play much above high C on a 3C.
Exactly where in the hell did you come up with that opinion??? And by "much above high C" are you referring to endurance or interval? A Bach 3C is not all that big...

I don't usually encourage people to spend all day hanging around here but in your case- you may learn something. Good luck.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The good thing about the herald is that anyone can voice their opinion on anything, the bad news is that some know nothing about what they are saying, anyone who states it is very hard to play above a high C on a Bach 3 C is full of crap..............
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gbshelbymi
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that Arturo Sandoval fellow should switch from his 3C mouthpiece because his high range isn't worth a damn.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many players who play in the upper register on 3C size mouthpieces. I personally play mouthpieces with a diameter that is slightly smaller but they are not extremely shallow. If you can do most things that you want to do on your present mouthpiece, the best thing to do is to practice on extending your range with it. Proper breathing and compression is key.

There is nothing wrong with experimenting with other mouthpieces, but a mouthpiece alone does not increase range for the most part. They do however allow you to use resistance and compression to access the upper register with less work if you find the right one for you.

Also, it is not cheating to use a different mouthpiece. Many players have different mouthpieces for different kinds of work. A lead piece and an all around piece are usually the way to go. You do not have to go to extremes to do this. Going from a 3C to a 3D or Yamaha Shew Jazz, Warburton M cups, etc. give you a bit more resistance and a brighter sound without being too extreme.

Pete
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Larger than a 3C.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should choose a mouthpiece rim diameter to fit your embouchure. If you have large, fleshy lips, you would probably struggle with a smaller mouthpiece and do better with a larger one. If you have small, thin lips, you would probably do better with a smaller mouthpiece. Once you have the diameter figured out, you can then look at things like cup size and shape, bore and backbore to help get the resistance and sound you want for the music you are playing.

If the 3C is a good fit for you, then I would encourage you to think about other things to help you make it through a concert in good shape so you can nail that last note. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Work in more lip slur and flexibility drills into your daily practice (Arban, Irons, etc.).

2. Work in some efficiency exercises to balance the hard, strenuous playing and to keep your embouchure flexible and responsive (John Daniels Special Studies, Clarke Technical Studies played very soft).

3. Practice regularly and cover the material you need to continue to develop, but don't wear yourself out with long, grinding practice sessions. Allow plenty of time for rest and recovery.

4. Pace yourself during rehearsals and performances. Know when you can back off and when you should be out front with your sound. Prioritize!
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't want to play on a mouthpiece too large or too small for YOUR chops. Mouthpiece diameter and rim shape is based on your lip size and thickness and also your teeth. I would definitely read the Dr.Mouthpiece articles posted here:

http://www.storkcustom.com/Library.htm

My philosophy is, 'why work harder and be less efficient when you don't have to?' In your case, unless your lips are extremely thick or thin, I would think the 3C is fine and you should be able to develop to a G above high C on it with correct practice of the fundamentals. If it's easy for you to try, say a 1C and a 101/2C, it might be worth it to see which, of the three, you prefer. Do you have Herbert Clarke's book, 'Setting Up Drills'? You'd be amazed at what practicing out of that book can do for your chops. Follow all his written instructions. They may be about 100 years old, but they are still just as true today.

I'll relate this one anecdote since it just happened at the end of this summer. A buddy of mine is a pro freelance player and developed everything in his playing very well on 3C diameter size mouthpieces as far as sound, power and endurance and could play lead with nice G's and A's. A consummate player. He was curious about gaining more facility in the extreme upper register as he had just gotten a fairly regular gig where it would have been good if he could play some Double C's and D's up there. I noticed he had thin lips and an overall facial structure on the smaller side, similar to mine. I suggested he take his current lead piece and have it downsized while also softening the bite somewhat (thin lipped players generally do better with a softer bite and wider rim without sacrificing accuracy). Within several weeks of playing this piece - along with doing on of my simple 'magic' exercises - Clarke #1 from the middle out or Group Three of 'Setting Up Drills' (hold till all air is gone on each) - he has been playing nice double C's and D's.

I'm not saying that changing to a bigger or smaller diameter is some kind of 'cure-all' but, in this fellow's case, he already had all his other skills of playing together and putting the right size rim to his face dialed everything in so he could play more efficiently.

I more often see players playing rims that are too big for them rather than too small only because if a rim size is too small for you, notes have trouble speaking so it's obvious the need for a change. Whereas in a diameter too big for you generally you just notice problems with range and endurance and you get the idea that you just need to practice more/differently. I teach trumpet and jazz part time at a college and have had students on lead pieces on around the diameter of a 1C all the way to the diameter a little bigger than a 20C - all depends on their lip structure! Best, Lex
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
Martinharris wrote:
It is very difficult to play much above high C on a 3C.
Exactly where in the hell did you come up with that opinion??? And by "much above high C" are you referring to endurance or interval? A Bach 3C is not all that big...

I don't usually encourage people to spend all day hanging around here but in your case- you may learn something. Good luck.


Good grief. 🙄

Craig, you beat me to it on this one.

Brad
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ewetho
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: are larger mouthpieces harder to play higher? Reply with quote

number juan wrote:
I started on a 3c a little more than two years ago and i believe my range is developing okay. I just want to know if playing notes higher than the high C would be easier with a smaller mouthpiece. Don't want to cheat, just wondering cause there are times when i have to hold a high note with a fermata in jazz towards the end of a concert and i want to know if there's maybe a mouthpiece size that can help me a bit with endurance until I can gain enough to last with any mouthpiece.


Don't judge me, i don't have experience when it comes to trumpet equipment


Not if is the mouthpiece that fits you. But that is rare. I played a 7C and inside of a week I went to a Schilke 20D2d and never looked back in high school. I found the 3C made everything easier day one the 1C took the second day and the 20D2d well that took about 3 days later and my range did not really go high but it was way more secure and I could play up there (only a high C but I OWNED it back then) all day. I was a very odd exception to the rule. But it is possible.

Most likely a 3D would help more. But extra practice time up there whenever possible building up your chops would be most helpful. Also building up breath support as well.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The correct size mouthpiece for the particular player is the one that makes the highest notes the easiest for that particular player. For some, that might be a Schilke 6A4A. For others, it's a Bach 1. In general, most players can play a (fairly narrow) range of mouthpieces sizes fairly well, with different aspects of playing being positively or negatively affected by the exact size choice. Within a particular player's size range, a smaller diameter (within that range) might make the higher notes easier in terms of strength required. But it also might make it harder to "find" or "develop" the "feel" or "knack" of how to play the higher notes that are within the strength levels of that player. And the smaller mouthpiece will probably negatively affect other elements of the player's playing (articulations, tone, accuracy, etc.).

My own story is a good example of what I'm trying to describe. I play well on, and do most of my work type playing (Broadway shows) on either a Reeves 43C (slightly smaller and shallower than a typical modern 3C) or a copy I have of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C (slightly bigger and deeper than a modern 3C). I find I can play the notes between High C and the G above slightly louder with slightly less physical effort on the Reeves 43C. But my articulations in the lower and middle registers are not as sure with it, especially on very quiet, tongued notes. And I'm not as accurate with it. But interestingly, in terms of the extreme upper register, I can play higher with more consistency on the bigger Mt Vernon 3C mouthpiece. It feels like there is more room for my lips to vibrate in the cup of the MV3C when going for my highest notes (and in fact, all other notes).

Lately I've been doing all my practicing on the MV3C and it's the mouthpiece I intend to use on my next show The Producers, which will be the first Broadway type show I've done with a Double High C in it. The slight amount more physical effort required is fairly easily developed, and is more than made up for by how it just feels easier to play the MV3C in terms of articulations, accuracy and consistency, and how my lips just don't feel "crowded" in its cup.

Hope this is helpful!

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: are larger mouthpieces harder to play higher? Reply with quote

number juan wrote:
I started on a 3c a little more than two years ago and i believe my range is developing okay. I just want to know if playing notes higher than the high C would be easier with a smaller mouthpiece. Don't want to cheat, just wondering cause there are times when i have to hold a high note with a fermata in jazz towards the end of a concert and i want to know if there's maybe a mouthpiece size that can help me a bit with endurance until I can gain enough to last with any mouthpiece.


Don't judge me, i don't have experience when it comes to trumpet equipment


"Smaller" can mean either a smaller cup diameter or a shallower cup, so you need to be more specific.

There is no specific yes or no answer to your question, because a smaller mouthpiece will help some players but will hurt other players.

When I was a teenager I spent years trying to play mouthpieces like the Schilke 6A4A Bill Chase model, but I could barely get above a High C.

Many, many years later I tried large mouthpieces such as a Bach 1 to achieve a better tone.
I was amazed that after a few months of adjustment I was able to squeak Double C's.
A Bach 1C became my "cheater mouthpiece" for notes up to Double C.
That works for me, but will not work for many other players.

So every player should give several mouthpiece sizes a fair tryout to find out what works for that individual player.
A small Bach 10-1/2, a medium Bach 7C, and a large Bach 1C.
You never know what your embouchure willl prefer unless you try them.
And a few seconds on a mouthpiece is not a fair tryout.
Weeks of practice on a mouthpiece size to give the embouchure a chance to adjust is required.

A person with size 12 feet will not run faster if he tries smaller and smaller shoes.
He will run faster if he finds shoes that have the proper length and width to support his feet without feeling too tight or too loose.
Each runner will end up running fastest with his own size of shoes, regardless of what shoes work best for some other runner.

Rocky
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danny45635
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 3C should be fine. I can play well above high C with it. I can get strong F#s on it without much of a problem. 1As are another story.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good Bach 3C - especially an older Mt.Vernon or NY which had a shallower cup and comfy rim - should be fine for a lot of players who don't have extremes in lip size or teeth/facial structure. Fine for getting solid endurance and a solid range from low F# to G above high C. If you feel your lips are unusually thick or thin, you could experiment with a Bach 1C or a Bach 101/2C. Good, solid endurance and the range mentioned above I would equate to a good jog if we use the running shoe analogy - if you need endurance to play all day and consistent double C+ range, then you would probably need to focus down on your equipment choice more thoroughly, and only after years of correct practice of the fundamentals of playing the trumpet - but that's not the situation of the original poster.

I would also like to offer this option for affordability and better consistency between mouthpieces: The Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece line - there's some fine pieces out there and they are very affordable and, IMO, more consistent than Bach from piece to piece. There are two players I work with sometimes and one plays with a 14a4a Yamaha GP (this is a little deeper cup and more open than a Schillke 14a4a) and one plays on a 7a4GP (a wonderfully versatile mouthpiece at the .630 diameter). I have a student with thinner lips that I switched to a Yamaha 5a4 mouthpiece a couple of years ago from a ridiculously bad no name 7C he was playing - he's getting great results with no embouchure issues. Google for a mouthpiece chart for Yamaha pieces if you are unfamiliar and you can see their approximate comparisons to Bach. The 11b4 is their '7C' and a great one at that. Best, Lex
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
The correct size mouthpiece for the particular player is the one that makes the highest notes the easiest for that particular player. For some, that might be a Schilke 6A4A. For others, it's a Bach 1. In general, most players can play a (fairly narrow) range of mouthpieces sizes fairly well, with different aspects of playing being positively or negatively affected by the exact size choice. Within a particular player's size range, a smaller diameter (within that range) might make the higher notes easier in terms of strength required. But it also might make it harder to "find" or "develop" the "feel" or "knack" of how to play the higher notes that are within the strength levels of that player. And the smaller mouthpiece will probably negatively affect other elements of the player's playing (articulations, tone, accuracy, etc.). .........
John Mohan
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IMO, this is absolutely correct.

Brad.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the Christmas spirit has gotten the better of me, but I have to say Mr.Mohan actually has some really good and helpful insights now and again.

Check out some of his posts on air and the LH in the CG forum - it's not all 'hot'.

- air I mean.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Maybe the Christmas spirit has gotten the better of me, but I have to say Mr.Mohan actually has some really good and helpful insights now and again.

Check out some of his posts on air and the LH in the CG forum - it's not all 'hot'.

- air I mean.


Now and again? I think you meant again and again.

Merry Christmas!

Maybe I'm just suffering from a case of Small Brain Syndrome, but what does LH refer to?
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cha! See, this is what happens with too many Christmas party gigs with spiked egg nog, too much downtime on the bandstand, and a BlackBerry.

- LH = 'long hold'. Man I've been doing Group Three of SUD with the LH the way you describe. Just fantastic. Talk about covering a lot with one exercise.

- Bah Humbug!

E.S.


Ok, OK.... M.C. 2 U 2
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walsh
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Number Juan,

I think you'll do just fine on a 3C. Get with a good teacher, have fun playing, and don't worry too much about it. As you develop with time and practice, most things will sort themselves out. In another year or two, you won't believe what you'll be able to do.


Best of luck,

John Walsh
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