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Monster Oil Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2014 Posts: 512 Location: New London, CT
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I don't agree with Mr. Gould. I view having to take medication (or, drugs, as Mr. Gould mentioned) as being a choice that is better than having to submit yourself to a lot of stress, which I believe is even worse for your body and mind, than having to take beta blockers. If the beta blockers relieve you of undue stress, and enable you to perform on a higher level, without having to suffer through racing heart beat, sky high blood pressure, dry mouth, unfocused mind to name a few symptoms of the fight or flight syndrome, then, I would say use them under a Dr.'s supervision. If one suffers these problems, but can manage to overcome them, then by all means do without them. Beta blockers don't affect your mind, since they are not tranquilizers, or psychotropic drugs, so you can still be nervous, but your body won't react accordingly. |
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roccotrumpetsiffredi Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2015 Posts: 169
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Mr. Gould, beta blockers are no good.
What happened to mentally trying to overcome anything?
I am surprised and very saddened to hear beta blocker use is so prevalent, I always thought practice and confidence in ones playing would be enough to overcome nerves. |
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BFlinch83 Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 244 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Disagree. The irony is too much to take... |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote: | I agree with Mr. Gould, beta blockers are no good.
What happened to mentally trying to overcome anything?
I am surprised and very saddened to hear beta blocker use is so prevalent, I always thought practice and confidence in ones playing would be enough to overcome nerves. |
As a pro (not a psychiatrist) in the field I would not advice medication but for very special instances or in complicated cases. Being a dedicated amateur suffering from stagefright at many times myself I have come to the conclusion that 1)you will have to practice a lot, thorougly know what you are doing in the first place thereby building selfconfidence but 2)it sure helps if you can identify what makes you jittery. Sometimes there are rather complex factors, working subconsciously and they may have to be addressed in some kind of treatment, the aim being to develop coping strategies. If restricted to stage performances not that hard to overcome. A most thorough diagnostic evaluation is of great help, just to exclude or include this or that.
Could be the general atmosphere of the band, frightening conductors, you name it. Or some words ringing in your ears telling you will never succeed etc
Knowledge of natural bodily reactions - it is natural to experince what could be termed "signal anxiety" a feeling telling you to prepare.
Etc. I never stop getting surprised over the multitude of bodily reactions our psyche can instigate. We sure are a complicated contraption! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote: | I agree with Mr. Gould, beta blockers are no good.
What happened to mentally trying to overcome anything?
I am surprised and very saddened to hear beta blocker use is so prevalent, I always thought practice and confidence in ones playing would be enough to overcome nerves. |
A former teacher of mine recently retired after 30 years as Associate Principal in a major symphony, and he used beta blockers his entire career. At the level he was at, I don't think more practice would have helped.
If you've never suffered the debilitating effects of stage fright, you can't imagine what it's like. Trust me, being prepared does not help at all. It's not so much being nervous that is the issue, but what it does to the body. For me, my heart races and my lower jaw quivers uncontrollably. A beta blocker will not take away my nerves, but it basically keeps adrenaline from producing the above mentioned effects.
Thankfully, I don't need to take them often. I had my prescription refilled two months ago and got 20 tables. That'll probably last me a year. |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Mark Gould on Showmanship and Nerves |
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Monster Oil wrote: | https://youtu.be/XHcNp_qDzNU
There is an f-bomb in this one.
You guys agree about his thoughts on beta blockers? |
+1 |
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George Coble Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 145
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Mark Gould is a world renown artist who has proved his mettle as a performer over many years. As a pedagogue, he has likewise influenced proteges who are today’s stars performing in world class orchestras. Mark’s opinions concerning beta blockers mirror those of Adolph Herseth’s and are, for all practical purposes, gospel.
My experience with beta blockers occurred very late in my 40 year career. In 2003, I was greeted with a most disturbing and uncontrollable vibrato during a morning pre-rehearsal warm-up. I attributed this to my usual morning dose of caffeinated coffee and it, fortunately, soon went away. In the following years this uncontrollable shaking in my lips came back every once in a while and I consulted with a renown neurologist. He correctly analyzed my condition as focal task-specific embouchure dystonia. The medications that were recommended were Mysoline, Methazolamide, and, later on, Propranolol, the “famous” beta blocker most musicians have heard about. Each and all of these drugs, in time, enabled me to extend my musical career for another few years. The overall lesson to be understood is that the human body adapts to any new influences, including drugs, and tends to require more and higher dosages in order to get the desired results. As such, the downsides of these drugs eventually altered my quality of life so substantially that I had to finally (and abruptly) retire in 2009 from performing on the trumpet in order to save my life from the multitudinous side affects I experienced.
Perhaps the most insidious of all these most potent drugs was the seemingly benign Propranolol. I was warned to never take more than a certain dosage of Propranolol in a single day. However, in the last 5 months of my career as a performer I was taking severe overdoses of this drug in order to thwart the constant shakings of my lips while performing. Even while taking Proparnolol I still experienced the so-called performance nerves that had not only accompanied my musical life for decades but also provided my music making with the spirit and personality that had become my longtime modus operandai. The effects of Propranolol use caused me very disturbing interrupted sleep patterns, a severe disconnect with daily thought processes, and particular difficulty with focusing during conversations and music making.
I would ask that one consider the downsides of taking non-necessary drugs that are meant for other specific medical purposes.
Good luck
George Coble |
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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George Coble wrote: | Mark Gould is a world renown artist who has proved his mettle as a performer over many years. As a pedagogue, he has likewise influenced proteges who are today’s stars performing in world class orchestras. Mark’s opinions concerning beta blockers mirror those of Adolph Herseth’s and are, for all practical purposes, gospel.
My experience with beta blockers occurred very late in my 40 year career. In 2003, I was greeted with a most disturbing and uncontrollable vibrato during a morning pre-rehearsal warm-up. I attributed this to my usual morning dose of caffeinated coffee and it, fortunately, soon went away. In the following years this uncontrollable shaking in my lips came back every once in a while and I consulted with a renown neurologist. He correctly analyzed my condition as focal task-specific embouchure dystonia. The medications that were recommended were Mysoline, Methazolamide, and, later on, Propranolol, the “famous” beta blocker most musicians have heard about. Each and all of these drugs, in time, enabled me to extend my musical career for another few years. The overall lesson to be understood is that the human body adapts to any new influences, including drugs, and tends to require more and higher dosages in order to get the desired results. As such, the downsides of these drugs eventually altered my quality of life so substantially that I had to finally (and abruptly) retire in 2009 from performing on the trumpet in order to save my life from the multitudinous side affects I experienced.
Perhaps the most insidious of all these most potent drugs was the seemingly benign Propranolol. I was warned to never take more than a certain dosage of Propranolol in a single day. However, in the last 5 months of my career as a performer I was taking severe overdoses of this drug in order to thwart the constant shakings of my lips while performing. Even while taking Proparnolol I still experienced the so-called performance nerves that had not only accompanied my musical life for decades but also provided my music making with the spirit and personality that had become my longtime modus operandai. The effects of Propranolol use caused me very disturbing interrupted sleep patterns, a severe disconnect with daily thought processes, and particular difficulty with focusing during conversations and music making.
I would ask that one consider the downsides of taking non-necessary drugs that are meant for other specific medical purposes.
Good luck
George Coble |
George, if you don't mind me asking, would you feel comfortable telling how many milligrams you were taking a day that caused the bad side effects? I was just on drugs.com, and some of the dosages listed for high blood pressure were up to 640 mg a day! I take one 20 mg tablet two hours before a performance. I have no idea what kind of dosage would be prescribed for dystonia. |
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Paladin53 Regular Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 Posts: 34
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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One of the numerous potential side effects of Beta Blockers is Peyronie's disease. So for about half the population things could take a turn for the worse.
Just saying. |
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Monster Oil Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2014 Posts: 512 Location: New London, CT
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Mark Gould on Showmanship and Nerves |
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Monster Oil wrote: | https://youtu.be/XHcNp_qDzNU
There is an f-bomb in this one.
You guys agree about his thoughts on beta blockers? |
Just top complicate things! (I know, he´s fiddler on the roof but anyway):
http://www.bulletproofmusician.com/values-clarification-a-novel-strategy-to-reduce-the-chances-of-choking-under-pressure/ _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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BFlinch83 Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 244 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:25 am Post subject: |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-m20Ao2rb4
Start at 25:00. Seems to have worked for him and he's a pretty darn good player.
In the modern world of professional orchestra playing perfection is everything. In order to advance at auditions one must play perfectly, and musical message is often of secondary importance, at least in advancing from the first round. Why would you not take 20 mg of beta blocker in order to alleviate a few symptoms?
Musicians have been self medicating for years, whether with prescriptions, alcohol, or other substances. How is taking a beta blocker worse than this? |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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BFlinch83 wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-m20Ao2rb4
Start at 25:00. Seems to have worked for him and he's a pretty darn good player.
In the modern world of professional orchestra playing perfection is everything. In order to advance at auditions one must play perfectly, and musical message is often of secondary importance, at least in advancing from the first round. Why would you not take 20 mg of beta blocker in order to alleviate a few symptoms?
Musicians have been self medicating for years, whether with prescriptions, alcohol, or other substances. How is taking a beta blocker worse than this? |
Yep musicians have been doing a lot of things to keep themselves on the track, from booze to heroine and what not. I do not condemn taking pills, but, if one has a problem of such magnitude it won´t go away by medication. And will return when least expected. Better attack it by some
other measure. Will be of considerable benefit in life overall!
Do look at the tread nearby! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Daniel Barenboim Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 247
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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BFlinch83 wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-m20Ao2rb4
In the modern world of professional orchestra playing perfection is everything. In order to advance at auditions one must play perfectly, and musical message is often of secondary importance, at least in advancing from the first round. |
Disagree. With the exception of my conducting of course, there is no such thing as perfection. People advance all the time playing rounds that aren't note perfect. Once you realize everyone misses, you start to miss less!
DB |
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trptdoc Veteran Member
Joined: 01 May 2003 Posts: 246
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Better check with your doc before trying propranolol . It can potentiate heart rythm abnormalities that can be fatal--like complete heart block . That said,most healthy hearts tolerate 20mg without problem. It will usually slow a normal heart rate into the 50 beats/min area . |
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:49 am Post subject: |
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trptdoc wrote: | Better check with your doc before trying propranolol . It can potentiate heart rythm abnormalities that can be fatal--like complete heart block . That said,most healthy hearts tolerate 20mg without problem. It will usually slow a normal heart rate into the 50 beats/min area . |
I can tell you, for me at least, it does not slow my heart rate into the 50 bpm area. It doesn't lower my heart rate at all. I've checked it out on numerous occasions, and it's right where it's normally at--around 72 bpm.
I also can't help but wonder if they're really that dangerous. The first doctor who prescribed them for me was a member of my church orchestra. One day at rehearsal we were discussing them, and he told me if I wanted, he could prescribe me some to try out. I had a wedding coming up soon and took him up on his offer.
The doctor who prescribes them for me now is a friend who used to sing in the same group as I did. Of course, Pennsylvania does not, like some states, require your primary physician to make all prescriptions. Still, I feel if there was ANY danger, no doctor would prescribe them without giving the patient a thorough examination for liability purposes, even if it was a personal friend. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I'd caution against drawing conclusions based on individual experiences and assumptions about individual doctor's practices. The medical warnings, I trust, are based on statistics and they wouldn't provide the warning unless some folks have problems _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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ML52K Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Dec 2003 Posts: 148 Location: Adirondacks of NY
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I caution people to not get too comfortable with the feeling that beta blockers aren't really all that dangerous.
As an optometrist dealing with topical ophthalmic preparations for glaucoma control, this class of topical drug has fallen from first line treatment because safer drugs have been developed. Even though topical eye preparations have relatively small amounts of the drug
We have been reminded on multiple occasions throughout our training and continuing education that beta blockers are, in fact, responsible for loss of human lives.
This is not a condemnation. I believe there may be a place for them in performance, but must be taken in proper dosages under medical supervision. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'll share my beta blocker story. West Side Story was about to open for its Fall and Winter of 2002/2003 run in Basel, Switzerland. It was a pretty intense show to put together in about just one week of rehearsal and prep time. My music director (who was responsible for getting me the job, as well as Evita earlier and Grease later), mistook my rather "energetic" (some would say "hyperactive") personality for nervousness and bugged me to try one of her beta blockers for one of the final dress rehearsal run throughs. To appease her and perhaps also to satisfy my own curiosity I relented and took one before the run through. It was a bad experience. I couldn't focus and made mistakes I know I never would have made had I not taken that pill - and as I made the mistakes, I didn't care that I made them. It was fortunate it wasn't an actual show but just one of the final run throughs.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Webcam Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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