Intro to the Pivot System

Wilktone · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:32 pm Post subject: Intro to the Pivot System

The Online Trombone Journal (http://www.trombone.org) has just published an article I wrote, "An Introduction to Donald S. Reinhardt's Pivot System." For those of you who have little or no background in the Pivot System you will hopefully find the information in this article useful in understanding the discussions in this particular forum and brass playing in general. You will find descriptions of Reinhardt's embouchure types (with photos), tonguing types, the sensation theory, definition of the pivot, and some basic suggestions to help get you started if you don't have access to a pivot system teacher.

Point your browser to the following URL to go directly to the article:

http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/viewarticles.asp?ArtID=240

Enjoy.

Dave W.
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BobList · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:19 pm Post subject:

Fantastic article......fantastic.... :^)

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Dave;
Excelent job!
I might have my memory failing me but I thought I remember Doc saying Wynton was a IVA.
Is this correct?????????
Dave S, RW, Chris, Any of you know about this??????
WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:44 am Post subject:

What do you think from these photos? His horn angle looks high enough to be a Type IV easily. A Type IVA should have a more receded horn angle.

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bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

First photo, yes.
second photo, not sure.
WEG

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I've always thought Wynton was a strait type IV.

Not only because he looks like a IV, but because he has to use HUGE equipment and a VERY HEAVY Monette trumpet to take the edge off his sound and give him the darkness he likes.

Only a strait type IV would have that much brillance.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

I thought I heard Doc say IVA in a lesson but I could be wrong.
Does Dave S. know?????????????
Are there any examples of a IV or IVA with a type 1 pivot???????
WEG

DSR · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:39 pm Post subject:

Wow Dave, the brass community was in need of an article like this!

-Brendan

FlugelFlyer · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:09 pm Post subject:

Excellent article and very informative! I definately liked the pictures of each embouchure in a clear mouthpiece. After reading one of the links in there, and seeing that it's common for a IIIA to lift the horn angle while inhailing and noticing that I do that and have a naturally low embouchure placement and ever so slight downward horn angle, and the fact that I noticed in a mirror that I naturally want to pull the embouchure slightly up while ascending in pitch and relaxing down while descending, and the fact that my Bach 3C that I used before my equipment/embouchure safari, I finally figured out that I'm a natural IIIA. I also noticed that my lips can swell somewhat while playing in this setting, which always seemed natural before. Anyway, now that I'm trying to use a more IIIA type setting, my playing has never felt more natural ever since that dreadful day my junior year of high school when a college professor told me that he doesn't let students play Bach 3C's in his jazz ensemble because of how prone it is to cause players' lips to swell (?).

Long story short, switched back to friendly Bach 3C, took a IIIA approach to playing, and now playing trumpet has never felt this natural since my pre-safari days. I'm thankfull for this article and for Reinhardt's studies (okay, I'll shut up now

).
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airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Hi..Bill,as to the Wynton photo (lower one) he is "ducking his head" here. He is, no doubt whatsoever, a IV and not a IVA.

Mike, you say you have a "low placement" and are a IIIA...a IIIA is a high placement and the horn angle is horizontal or past horizontal, not at a downward angle. There are few exceptions, however, as to the angle, for a IIIA, and the placement leads me to believe you are a IVA with a #1 Pivot, rare, but we are all different. Have someone check you through a clear mouthpiece for which lip predominates in the cup. As to your pivot (push up to ascend, pull down to descend), if it is working, then it is your correct pivot. Contact me personally if you wish and I will give you some characteristics of the IIIA vs. the IVa so you can judge for yourself.

Dave W. Highly commendable for such a formidable task! I am sending out the latest PivoTalk Newsletter and will let all Reinhardt Foundation members know of your tremendous contribution. Dave S.

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-10-31 09:00 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:32 am Post subject:

Congratulations on a very informative and well-written article!
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"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

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bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Ok, so my memory is fading.
Wynton is a IV.
Dave S.
Mike could be the opposite of me (IIIB with a high placement).
He should have one of us watch him in person with a clear mpc.
DE quote:
"It looks like a IIIA, but it isn't."
WEG

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Dave W.,
BTW, all of my college students are required to have a copy of your article in their brass notebook.
WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:27 am Post subject:

Thanks, everyone, for your kind words about my article! I'm happy that you're finding it useful.

I hope that having this available will help TH Forum members to join us in our disucssions here by allowing them to have a grasp on the terms we use and some visuals to go with the descriptions.

FlugelFlyer · Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06 am Post subject:

Let me clarify, back in the good ol' days I played with my lips low in the mouthpiece, or I guess a high mouthpiece placement. I hope that clears up confusion instead of adding more

.

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:34 am Post subject:

I'm just bringing this topic back up to the top; somebody in the Fundamentals Forum just asked about his apparent upstream embouchure.

I've referred a bunch of people to this article you wrote, Dave! You da man!

Rich

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:33 am Post subject:

Just bringing this article back up to the top. Hmm, now I'm wondering if I can make this a "sticky" so it stays up at the top.
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iambrassman · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:56 am Post subject:

That article is exceptional! I put a post in the high range forum regarding what 'natural players do naturally', and have been trying to get a grip on it myself (being semi-naturally endowed). I wasn't familiar with this level of detail and was struggling with how to capture it -- you did an excellent job!
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trptdoc · Veteran Member Joined: 01 May 2003 Posts: 246

I have been following this site for some time and have really enjoyed warmup #57. Based on the above article I believe I am a type IIIB: mostly upper lip and use a downward(type 2) pivot. I have orderd all the books from Dr. Sheetz site and look forward to more study. I have been playing 50 plus years, studied with many great teachers and have been teaching brass for 25 years and am always wanting to know more. Unfortunately prior to this forum the "Pivot System" was grossly misrepresented to me. Any advice for IIIB players--especially in the altissiomo above G above hi C?

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730