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Bri Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 367 Location: White Plains, NY
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:57 am Post subject: Arban's Carnival of Venice...Final Variation |
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I'm working on Carnival with a student for her upcoming All-State audition. She absolutely crushes everything except the first part of the final variation. The large leaps are killing her. She often times misses the accented lower notes by a partial. We have been at it for quite some time, isolated each interval, worked it very slow with a metronome, and almost every thing else I can think of. She has the concept of tongue arch and tongue level down, and effectively uses it elsewhere, but this variation Gets to her.
Does anyone have suggestions for playing those large interval leaps and successfully dropping off each time? _________________ -Bri
"Teachers make every other profession possible!"
Last edited by Bri on Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a link to a youtube video from Roger Webster and Richard Marshall. This link starts at the part where they offer tips on variation 4 of Carnival of Venice. Maybe this will help: https://youtu.be/YeJB1_GRCSk?t=147 _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:12 am Post subject: |
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How does she do with the Arban gruppetto studies on p. 91 or the interval studies on p. 125? Practice with both of those studies might help her.
Also, you indicated that you've had her work on variation IV slowly with a metronome. Have you had her single tongue it in that manner?
After she's done that for a while and perhaps has a better feel for the intervals you might then have her add slurs back in, but in two note patterns starting in the second measure: D up to C, B up to C, D down to C, B up to C, etc. Again, start slowly and use the metronome.
If she starts to get the feel for two-note slur pattern, and even more confident with the intervals, you'd then reintroduce the proper tongue-slur patterns.
One last thing to consider is the order in which she practices the variations. If she always practices variation IV last she might be working on those difficult intervals with tired chops. Every time she misses the interval she is reinforcing the wrong notes. Might be worth having her practice that variation first while she get the feel for the intervals with fresh(er) chops. Later on she can go back to practicing them in sequence.
I hope this helps. Good luck to her! |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Have her play the melody (low) notes an octave higher for a while to get used to the 7 tone pattern in-between, then have her play only the 7 note pattern (and 3 note patterns as well) without the downbeats but in-time, leaving a rest for the melodic tones. Then try the entire thing at a reduced tempo but really observe the accents on the melody tones.
If that doesn't work, have her play only the jumps in time as accented, so it will come out either "tow- tow tee-, tow tee, tow tee-, etc (or tah- tah tee-, tah tee tah tee-). When that's working, add the easy filler stuff. One or the other should help. Good luck. |
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Tal Katz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 781 Location: Israel
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I think eventually it's really about practicing slowly click by click on the metronome and getting comfortable when it gets faster. It takes time to master this variation as it requires a certain level of flexibility. Patience is definitely the key here. It takes time and hard work for the brain to develop the ability to process all the notes at faster speeds. She has to get to a point where she can actually hear all the phrases clean and accurate in the fastest tempo she's planning to play at. My tips for this variation are: make sure she isn't cutting the notes too short when tonguing between the octave jumps, it's important to keep a steady air flow through these. Best way to make her hear if she's doing it right is by letting her play it slowly. Another tip is to try to minimize embouchure movements as much as possible between the interval jumps. I would actually do it by practicing all the phrases slurred, no tongue. Then when adding articulations I'd make sure to keep the same note lengths. It puts things under control and in better balance. Work up from the fastest tempo she can play at her best right now and go click by click. _________________ You are what you practice. |
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kenhafer New Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2016 Posts: 5 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Swartz wrote: | Have her play the melody (low) notes an octave higher for a while to get used to the 7 tone pattern in-between, then have her play only the 7 note pattern (and 3 note patterns as well) without the downbeats but in-time, leaving a rest for the melodic tones. Then try the entire thing at a reduced tempo but really observe the accents on the melody tones.
If that doesn't work, have her play only the jumps in time as accented, so it will come out either "tow- tow tee-, tow tee, tow tee-, etc (or tah- tah tee-, tah tee tah tee-). When that's working, add the easy filler stuff. One or the other should help. Good luck. |
I've found that the latter was the best method for me to prepare this work. That, and a lot of time with a metronome... |
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severinsen Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 Posts: 115 Location: Pensacola, FL
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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I know this is an older thread and your student is gone, but I'm going to write up one quick tip that helped me since other players might read this thread one day in the future and get something out of it. Plus, I've never read about this specific tip online since it's something I kinda just determined on my own that it helped.
When practicing the final variation, I found that playing the bottom notes ONLY while ONLY fingering the top part and blowing air helped me immensely. Don't even worry, at first, if you're fingering the top part correctly (at first). Just play the bottom and "push buttons" for the top at first. Then you can move on to fingering the top part correctly without playing. Then add it all together.
Obviously, teachers in the past have advocated learning both parts separately at first, but I've yet to read anyone recommend playing the bottom, only, while only fingering the top. This helped me because of the coordination that's needed- taking away only one aspect of the part helped me concentrate on becoming more coordinated and gaining muscle memory without worrying if I'm getting the right notes. |
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