Cornet Trial

tromba mann · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:06 pm Post subject:

I took the plunge and am trying out a used Bach 184 XL. I am comparing it to my old beat up Olds Ambassador and a sweet vintage Monarch, which is only borrowed =(. The Bach is nice and big and is suprisingly supple at soft dynamics even above the staff. The trigger on the first slide and the ring on the third slide is awkward (either do one or the other!) It feels weird to move both thumb and ring finger towards the bell. Saddle and ring or two triggers please.

The Monarch and Olds are both much darker at loud dynamics, which goes to show you that there's more to darkness than bore.

The valves are fast but loud like all of my Bachs. The Olds valves are slow and loud, so there you go. The Monarch valves are not as fast but they are silent - pretty good for 1916-ish!

The Bach was offered as "A" quality, but I'm not so sure. There are two pings in the bell as well as several scratches from mis-guided mute insertions (or else using a brillo pad as a trumpet stand pad). There is also a deep scratch/wear mark where the trigger has repeatedly hit the first valve casing. Bad design - a felt pad would have prevented that. Also, no third valve water key.

Has anyone played the new Besson Prestige??? I'm dying to hear a review.
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Cogito, ergo sum

pfrank · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:22 pm Post subject:

That's interesting because I've played allot of Bach Strad cornets and prefer my Bach 300 hands down for a reason you mention: the Strads are too bright! The 300 has 2 rings for the tuning slides and the monel valves are quiet and fast. It's heavier than a Strad cornet and very comfortable to hold. I just goes to show that there are no set rules on these things.

trumpetmike · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:34 pm Post subject:

From my experience, the Strad cornets are designed for trumpeters, to sound like trumpeters and look like cornet players. I have tried them and have never been able to make them blend within a cornet section (British Brass Band style).
It all depends what you are intending to use your cornet for. If you are going to be doing solos with it, but rarely or never playing in a band - it could be right for you.
If you are looking for that traditional British Brass Band style sound (and ability to blend with other cornet players) I would definitely recommend at least trying the Prestige. I have tried it and would love to be able to justify getting one. At the moment I am only using my cornet very rarely so I have no need to upgrade my Yamaha Maestro, which is fantastic, by the way.

The right instrument for you is the one that works for you - try as many as possible and see which one does.

OldKid · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2003 Posts: 135

I have a Bach long bell cornet. With a trumpet type mp it sounds so close to a trumpet that most people can't tell the difference. The big difference is in the way it plays and not how it sounds. It is much easier to play certain articulations ( slurs/trills ) on the cornet than on trumpet. I've played the 184XL and in this bore and with the correct mp ( not a Bach 6, but a DW4 or something simular ) I could achieve a good, dark, BB type sound. I also have a Getzen 3850 Cornet that really has that BB sound with the right mp. Funny thing is that with a trumpet type mp like a Bach 1.5C it sounds like ________ you fill in the word. So before you make up your mind about anything make sure your using a proper cornet mp that is designed for the type of horn you're playing. I think trumpet type mps sound really bad with short bell cornets while both cornet and trumpet type mps sound good with long belled models. Depending on what you are after....I'll shut up now:)

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Bach 181 Strad Cornet B1.5B
YAMAHA Xeno B1.5C
Getzen 3850 Cornet (Getzen 4B)
King (early 50's) Super 20 B1.5C
Pocket Max B1.5C
Arban's

[ This Message was edited by: OldKid on 2003-11-06 11:11 ]

[ This Message was edited by: OldKid on 2003-11-06 12:00 ]

tromba mann · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:10 am Post subject:

I am using a Wick 3B for all the trials to keep that consistent. What a great mpc. Makes my old Olds Amb. sing!
_________________
Cogito, ergo sum

tromba mann · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:33 pm Post subject:

Played the XL 184 in BB tonight and it blended better than anything I've played in quite sometime. I could play 4th space E at ppp in tune for bar after bar. The Wick/Bach combo seems to fit very well. I tried an old cornet shank 3E just for fun yesterday and it sounded terrible. Gap, depth, throat, cup shape make such a huge difference.

It really opened my eyes to the different impressions a horn can give in isolation versus in an ensemble. The match of the timbre and intonation to the section and the rest of the band really tests the qualities of the instrument. As I get used to the .468 bore, I see lots of potential for orchestra (cutting through when needed) and for solo work.

So I'm down to a few beefs about slide/triggers and the extra ding or two. The four folks I had play it liked it also and one of the "testers" knows more and owns more cornets than most of us all put together. (If you're in the GBB, you know who I mean). So I give myself a few more days to mull over it and it'll be settled. Thanks for reading - this is good therapy for me!

TM

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:55 am Post subject:

pfrank · Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:12 am Post subject:

BBD, my 300 is the only one I've tried so I don't know if mine is a fluke--like they are all decent but something about the bracing and node point worked out on mine. (the Scodwell trumpet has the brace wherever it sounds best, so some have it close to the valves some have it close to the bell). Certainly, the thing I first noticed was how much the 300 sounded like a Bach Strad trumpet when a C cup mp is used, and to me that was a good thing as it complements my 1st string 77 Benge mlp which is a brighter but more rich (complex) sounding instrument...the 300 is still darker than a Bach Strad cornet...and with the Wick 4 1/2 (a perfect mp, inho) it makes a smooth and dark enough sound to satisfy any flugalhorn lover, but without flug's tubby mid range and intonation problems.

I have heard that the 300 trumpet isn't the greatest player...(described once as stuffy) One thing the 300 cornet illustrates is how cornets of the same make and class are often much better than the trumpet version. They seem to hold together better. It's true of the Holton Super Collegiate: the cornet is nifty and the trumpet is just OK. In my experience, that is...

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-11-07 10:31 ]

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:38 am Post subject:

I resemble those remarks...that mouthpiece that was supplied with the Bach...was in fact, a #6B (that is the one I bought....and if I remember the info on my little BACH BOX mentioned that this was a tad deeper than the 6C? hummmm?
However is still doesn't play as deep and fat as that old Besson #5 V cup that I found at Auburn Music....years ago.

This new little Holton mp. that I gleaned yesterday...plays really dark..but it sounds more dull than dark...and really is cookie-cutter and doesn't work at all well for me...compared to my old Besson V.
It appears to look more like a "Freedom horn mouthpiece" than a cornet mouthpiece.