1964 Mt. Vernon Stradivarius

jophst · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:17 am Post subject:

Hello all. Last night I made what I would like to call a very good deal on Ebay. Someone was selling a Vintage Bach that he hadn't played since 1984. Please see the auction below:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41400&item=2570831670

I e-mailed him and asked if he would sell this horn to me outside of Ebay since I had been looking for a good playing Vintage Strad. He went on to say that he purchased it in 1964 (which come to find out was during the Mt. Vernon era). He explained that him and his then trumpet teacher went and tried out 10-15 Strads and had none other than William Vacchiano pick this horn out of the litter. He sold it to me for $850 + shipping. If I goes well, I think I may have a horn that I can retire with!!! The original case is even included!

I'm pumped! I don't mean to brag about it and all, but I'm very excited!
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

smokinschilke · Regular Member Joined: 15 Oct 2003 Posts: 43

Congrats to you! My guess is that you don't like the way it plays, you will sell it for $2K on Ebay like the others that I have seen........

jophst · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:48 am Post subject:

Well I certainly don't plan on that happening. I will more than likely have it sent off for a chem cleaning and a valve alignment. If it is a great playing horn like I expect it to be, I suspect it will perfect when it returns.

It's a piece of musical history also which gives the horn character which I love as well.
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

JackD · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:54 am Post subject:

I'd love to try one of those things. Better save up the pennies.

wardsd · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 504

Let us know more about it when you receive it. If it is a Mt. Vernon, you did get a great deal! Can't tell from the listing, since he didn't say where it was made or what the serial number is. I'm also curious about the raw brass main tuning slide.

Steve

JackD · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:05 am Post subject:

I'm by no means an expert on this (!) but I think if you look at the right hand finger hook, it looks like one of the old Bach types, and also look at the 3rd valve slide at the bottom, you can see it is the reverse of modern Bachs - a feature of the old ones I think. I noticed the tuning slide too, wonder if that makes a difference to the sound?

jophst · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:09 pm Post subject:

Yes it certainly looks like the real deal. I had spoken to Warren (the owner) last night about the horn. He talked about all his experiences with the trumpet and the varoius places he played all over New York with it from Big Band gigs to Orchestra's. He was a really genuine person.

I will let you all know in a couple days how it plays!

P.S. The main tuning slide does look real interesting doesn't it.

Josh
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

LOVETOOTEACH · New Member Joined: 05 Nov 2003 Posts: 2

If this is the horn, I emailed him before you bought it and he said the serial # was #47xxx

Early Elkhart.

jophst · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:58 pm Post subject:

Oh well ... so much for that dream. I'm sure it will play very well though!

Thanks,
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

LOVETOOTEACH · New Member Joined: 05 Nov 2003 Posts: 2

I know I thought the same thing when I saw it, but I wanted to be sure so I emailed him.
I hope its still a great player for you:)

bkmdano · Veteran Member Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 328

A friend has a early Elkhart in that number range. It is one of the best Strads I've played.
Very nice tone and blow.
_________________
Dan
Schilke B7Lgp
Schilke S33HDLg
Lawler TL6r1a
Schilke 1040 flugelhorn

jophst · Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:42 pm Post subject:

Yes I think it is still a good buy considering it was picked out of 10-15 by someone who knows much more about trumpet playing than a lot of us ... Mr. Vacchianno himself. I know someone else with a horn in the later 40000 range and says the same thing.

Sorry now that the title of this topic is incorrect!!!

A well ... a good Bach is still a good Bach right?
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

_gmdean · Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:20 am Post subject:

I have an early 39xxx 1966 Strad, it's a fantastic player, pure centered core and responds very quickly. You have picked your's up cheap my friend. With a clean up you will have a bargin that you can retire with IMHO. Much better than later Strads I have played and there is also the psychological history and character bit. I think you will also find that the "stuffy" criticism that modern strads get accused of is not an issue with this horn. I bought it from a pro player who was selling because he had decided to keep a custom (ie hand built) modern strat and also had to use a Xeno in the section he'd just got a job with.

I also have a late MT Vernon from just the other side of the move. It's a bit difficult to compare them because the Mt Vernon is L rather than ML, perhaps a tad darker and more open but that might well be down to the bore size. Cosmetically the main differences are the reversed 3rd slide stop on the Mt Vernon compared to the modern, the finger hook is slightly different and the leadpipe reciever is slightly longer. Most of those aren't easy to see unless you have both side by side. The valve top/bottom caps are a sightly different shape as are the finger pulls on the slides and the tuning slide spit valve is in a slightly different position, slightly higher up on the MT Vernon.

If you don't like the "classic" slightly noisy Bach valves you can get felts put in (schilke one's work well) but I'd suggest you have a pro alignment done if you do this. You can also use modern plastic valve guides. I've been playing with the Mt Vernon while I save up for a bit of restoration work, mine currently has Besson springs in which are slightly softer than the standard Bach. Standard valves are good, smooth and fast on both horns but they are a bit noisy, not something I have an issue with but I know some do. I haven't decided if I prefer the slightly softer springs yet.

Enjoy and let us know how she blows

JackD, I am in Kent, live in Gravesend, work in Canterbury, If you want to meet up sometime and have a blow on the Mt Vernon feel free to email me g.m.dean@kent.ac.uk

Regards
Mark

jophst · Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:09 am Post subject:

Thanks for the info and words of encouragement Mark! I am still counting the minutes until I receive the horn!

I went to a local music store yesterday and tried out a few horns as I heard that they had a Mt. Vernon for sale. It had the serial # 13xxx and was a ML with a 43 bell. It had been masterfully refurbished to new standards ... crisp engravings ... the works!! I didn't play it first though. He had about 5 other used Bach Strad's ... with serials 41xxx, 281xxx, 300xxx, 404xxx, and one other lemon not worth mentioning. They were all model 37's though. The 300xxx played ok but the worst of what was left, the 404xxx had a nice sound and decent intonation but real real stuffy in the upper register. The 41xxx played really well but was a little stuffy in on the high end .. nice horn though all around. The 281xxx was amazing ... and I do mean amazing!! Every note blew perfect! He said this was a repo from an All-State student who had a professor pick it out for him (familiar story). I put it down though and tried out the Mt. Vernon. The Mt. Vernon was a terrific horn. It played extremely well and was very responsive. I wish it had a 37 bell on it so I could do an accurate comparison, but it had a gorgeous sound .. a little too focused for my tastes though. It didn't have the original case and he said he would take $2,000 for it. Too high for me ... but anyone who likes Mt. Vernon's would love this one! However, I kept the Mt. Vernon out and had him get rid of all the other Strad's except the 281xxx. I played various things on both horns from Jazz to Petrouchka to Carnival of Venice to church music to scales to long tones. The salesman just sat down and listened to me play both horns. I didn't talk to him though while I played. When I put both down, he said "Well, it only costs half what that one does ... ". I laughed because he knew which one sounded better. It played better and sounded better every time! I'm not kidding. It was a close race and the Mt. Vernon still plays better than my current horn, but the 37 took the Gold on every test! I didn't think they made any GREAT Bach's in the late 80s .. good sure but not GREAT! He wants $1000 for it which may seem high but for the kind of playing horn it may be worth it.

I'm going to wait til I get the early Elkhart in to make a decision. Maybe the horn I've been looking for all this time is 5 miles down the road ... would't that be hilarious!?!?!
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

_gmdean · Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:21 am Post subject:

Joshua
I think Bach still make the occasional GREAT horn, it's just finding the damn thing. Never understood why trumpet prof's don't make a small fortune by advertising to find a "player" for us.

Mind you after posting that story on here if I were you I'd shoot down to that shop and put a "hold this horn" deposit on that dream machine. If the shop is any good they will understand your position and hold the horn for you until you are in a position to make the comparison. You can probably sell them the "not quite" Mt Vernon if you decided you prefer the dream machine. To put the price in perspective I paid more than $1000 for my 37 and then had to pay import duty. I think there's a point where you just "know" a horn is right and at that point the price doesn't matter, guess that's why some folks buy a Monett

Price for a good condition 2nd hand Strad is approx = to $1000 over here and that's before you do the play test. I was very lucky with both mine as I couldn't play test and had to trust the sellers.

I think you have a point too about the 43 bell which I suspect had more influence on your choice than the differences in design between a MT Vernon and the newer horn. Interestingly, according to Bach guru Dave the 43 is standard for the XL bore horn not the ML. http://www.electrotheremin.com/bachbells.html

My Mt Vernon has a 37 bell, although it's L bore so it looks like folks ordered custom back then, guess they chose what felt right to them.

One other thing, I'd suggest you give the horn a good long soak in the bath before you play test it, the first time I played the Mt Vernon I was very disappointed, stuffy as hell. Once I'd got rid of several years worth of the previous owners left overs from lunch it was sweat as a bell, guess some guys only clean the outside if you know what I mean.

Anyhow hope you end up with that dream horn whichever way it goes.

Regards
Mark

smokinschilke · Regular Member Joined: 15 Oct 2003 Posts: 43

Is this horn already listed in the marketplace or is it a different horn? Seems to me that the description is the same. Hate to say that I told ya so....but I told ya so!! LOL

[ This Message was edited by: smokinschilke on 2003-11-13 13:43 ]