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Martinharris Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:31 pm Post subject: Warburton arturo Sandoval top |
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Hey guys,
I need someone who has played on the warburton arturo top to tell me if it has exactly the same rim as the horn trader rim or compare it to another mt vernon 3C copy?
Thanks |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Noticeably larger ID than a Curry 3-dot and doesn't feel as broad in profile either.
Not sure if the horntrader 3 rim is Curry's current 3(dot) rim or the older Curry 3 rim, but I believe they're made by Curry? |
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Martinharris Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, but what do you mean "broad profile"? |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I meant the rim itself is broader (wider), independent of the ID. |
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NYC-player Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2016 Posts: 627
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Martinharris wrote: | Thanks, but what do you mean "broad profile"? |
I think that means how she looks from the side |
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McVouty Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 149
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Your post is timely as I have just sold my Arturo top on ebay and am putting it in the post tomorrow I have a Curry 3C. and a HT3CS-28 for comparison.
All three have the same rim profile, which is flatter than a modern 3C and very comfy.
The Arturo top is closer to a modern 1 1/4C in both cup width and depth IMO.
Its hard to compare exactly the warburton and the HT but both visually and on the lips they look and feel to be pretty close. The Warburton is much deeper than the HT-3CS though.
I couldn't find a Warburton backbore out of my small collection that worked for me with the Arturo top. If I want to play something that big, I would go to my Bach 1 1/4C in preference - however nowadays I'm heading towards more moderate rim diameters
Hope that helps. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I play the Warburton Arturo cup on all my horns. I always thought that it was a relatively small 3C cup but I seem to be wrong. Anyhow the A cup is or feels smaller than my VB corp. 3C mp.
On my trumpets I use a 5bb (great combination) on cornet a 7 or my custom Jim New made Conn short shank bb..
I really love the Arturo cup, plays so well. Part of the trick is the semi-narrow 5 bb. The backbores of the VB's and the Curry's are too big for me. |
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Martinharris Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thankyou SO MUCH guys!
I'm actually copying a rim for a custom piece (I'm not even keeping the same diameter) but I needed to know that the warburton and the horn trader pieces have exactly the same rim contour.
That's what I'll order |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:27 am Post subject: |
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The Curry 3 rim is rounder than the Horntrader one. I have not compared the diameters. I have also not seen the Warburton Arturo rim. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Martinharris wrote: | Thankyou SO MUCH guys!
I'm actually copying a rim for a custom piece (I'm not even keeping the same diameter) but I needed to know that the warburton and the horn trader pieces have exactly the same rim contour.
That's what I'll order |
I think I don't understand you. Why is it important that the HT's en W's have the same rim contour?
Your mp is custom made so if you like the HT's rim why bother with the Warburton one? Take the one you like.
My guess is that Terry copied Arturo's MtV 3C but gave his own twist to the rim. |
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StupidBrassObsession Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 1014
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I have the Warburton and the HT3CS. The rim sizes are quite different. The Arturo top seems more like a 1.5C with a different cup shape. The rim feels.different to me too, the HT feels softer and friendlier, but that might just be how the different diameters interact with my teeth. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Yes, as others have written, while the Horntrader mouthpieces have the contour (shape) of Arturo's rim, they are sized smaller in diameter than Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C. The Horntrader mouthpieces have a cup diameter that is a tad smaller than that of a modern 3C (which itself is a tad smaller than Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C).
While this isn't about the Warburton copy of Arturo's mouthpiece, I do have some info to share:
Jim New is up and running now and his website address is:
http://www.james-r-new.com/
He has a full in line of mouthpieces available with three different rim shapes, three different depths and 5 different cup diameters. Now here's the cool info:
His S ("Standard") rim shape, which he describes on the website as being "comparable to a quality Bach 3C rim shape" is actually an exact copy of the rim shape (contour) from Arturo Sandoval's favorite Mt Vernon 3C mouthpiece. This rim is available sized up or down in diameter depending on the rim (cup) diameter size ordered, but always with the same shape (contour) in any of his cup sizes.
And his 5 rim (cup) diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C. If this rim size is ordered with his M (Medium) cup depth and his S ("Studio") Backbore, one ends up with an exact copy of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C, save for the throat (Arturo's has a #24 Throat where as Jim ships his mouthpieces with a large-ish #27 throat). One could order the mouthpiece with a #24 throat if they want an exact copy right down to the throat size.
So, in summary, if one wants a copy of the Arturo Sandoval Mt Vernon 3C, one would order from Jim a S5M cup on an S Backbore and ask for a #24 throat. And if one wants a shallow version (about the depth of a Reeves S cup), one can order a S5S with an S backbore (or an L "Lead" Backbore if one likes a lot of resistance).
Jim recently sent me a bunch of mouthpiece tops and bottoms for testing and they are superb. In particular, the S5M cup with the S backbore feels exactly on my lips like my copy of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C that Jim made me when he was with Kanstul. When playing it, it feels almost exactly the same (note that it has the stock #27 throat where as mine has the #24 throat and that would account for the very slight difference in playing feel and sound).
I think Jim is also planning on doing a run of one-piece exact copies of Arturo's mouthpiece, with even the same Mt Vernon Bach Blank shape at some point in the future. But in the meantime, one can get it all (except the slightly different Mt Vernon Blank shape) by ordering a S5M/S cup/backbore combination from him with a #24 throat (though for many if not most, the stock #27 throat is probably fine and can always be bored out later if desired).
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Karel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2001 Posts: 501 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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John, what are the differences in comparison with the Bach mouthpieces? for me Bach mouthpieces are not as easy to play and less comfortable as state-of the art mouthpieces as Reeves, GR, Stomvi-Flex. Are those new pieces a "modern" and better playing alternative instead of the Bach oldtimers?? |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:37 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
And his 5 rim (cup) diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C. If this rim size is ordered with his M (Medium) cup depth and his S ("Studio") Backbore, one ends up with an exact copy of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C, save for the throat (Arturo's has a #24 Throat where as Jim ships his mouthpieces with a large-ish #27 throat). One could order the mouthpiece with a #24 throat if they want an exact copy right down to the throat size.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
Hi John
Obviously you are right since you have actually tried them, and it can probably be explained by Jim New saying that he measures the inner diameter at the point where contour arcs change direction or the point where a rim meets the bowl or cup of the mouthpiece, but I was very surprised when you mentioned that the 0.650" No. 5 diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt. Vernon 3C, since the Curry 3C., which as we all know is based on a Mt. Vernon 3C rim but a smaller variant which is more along the lines of the diameter of an Elkhart Bach 3C, has a quoted cup diameter of 0.665".
It is presumably a perfect example of different manufacturers measuring in a different place.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | John Mohan wrote: |
And his 5 rim (cup) diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C. If this rim size is ordered with his M (Medium) cup depth and his S ("Studio") Backbore, one ends up with an exact copy of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C, save for the throat (Arturo's has a #24 Throat where as Jim ships his mouthpieces with a large-ish #27 throat). One could order the mouthpiece with a #24 throat if they want an exact copy right down to the throat size.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
Hi John
Obviously you are right since you have actually tried them, and it can probably be explained by Jim New saying that he measures the inner diameter at the point where contour arcs change direction or the point where a rim meets the bowl or cup of the mouthpiece, but I was very surprised when you mentioned that the 0.650" No. 5 diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt. Vernon 3C, since the Curry 3C., which as we all know is based on a Mt. Vernon 3C rim but a smaller variant which is more along the lines of the diameter of an Elkhart Bach 3C, has a quoted cup diameter of 0.665".
It is presumably a perfect example of different manufacturers measuring in a different place.
Take Care
Lou |
Yes, this is another perfect example of why one should NEVER rely on numerical measurements. Everybody measures differently. Incidentally, the Curry 3C. is very similar to the Arturo Sandoval MV3C. in that the cup diameters are almost identical. The rims are a little different and the 3C. is slightly shallower. Here's a scan Jim made me years ago comparing them:
Concerning the new James R. New Mouthpieces:
Jim's S rim shape is an exact copy of Arturo's rims shape, Jim's 5 rim diameter is an exact copy of Arturo's rim diameter, Jim's M cup depth is an exact copy of the size (and shape) of the cup of Arturo's mouthpiece and Jim's S backbore is an exact copy of the backbore in Arturo's mouthpiece (in theory that backbore would be a Bach 10, but it's not the same as a Bach 10). As such, when this combo is ordered you end up with a virtual clone of Arturo's mouthpiece (save for the fact that Jim ships with #27 throats and Arturo has a #24 throat in his MV3C, and the slightly different Blank shape).
Not incidentally, I am keeping the S5M/S setup Jim sent, as it will now be my backup mouthpiece to my copy of Arturo's MV3C. And I actually appreciate its (stock) #27 throat. It seems to make the notes from G on top the staff up to G above High C pop out a little easier (at the expense of a brighter sound down lower, and also, for whatever reason, the notes between G above High C and Double High C are easier for me on the #24 throated mouthpiece).
Best wishes,
John |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Karel wrote: | John, what are the differences in comparison with the Bach mouthpieces? for me Bach mouthpieces are not as easy to play and less comfortable as state-of the art mouthpieces as Reeves, GR, Stomvi-Flex. Are those new pieces a "modern" and better playing alternative instead of the Bach oldtimers?? |
Yours is an excellent question.
I would say they are both modern and old-school, in the best of both ways.
Jim is offering three different rim shapes, on any of this cup diameter and depth combinations. The R shape is rounded and is basically a copy of the rim shape preferred by Del Staigers, Herbert L. Clarke and Claude Gordon. The S shape is medium-wide and is based (exactly) on the wonderful rim of the Mt Vernon 3C, specifically, Arturo Sandoval's favorite Mt Vernon 3C. This rim shape is even more comfortable than that of a modern Bach 3C - it's a large part of the reason vintage Mt Vernon 3C mouthpieces sell in the $500 range today. It's also noteworthy that others including Steve Dillard (the Horntrader) are using this rim shape on their lines of mouthpieces. Jim's W rim is wider and more comfortable for extreme playing.
Five rim diameters are offered ranging across the board from a diameter of a 10-1/2C up to the diameter of about a Bach 1C.
Three cup depths are offered, the D (Deep) appearing from the scan on Jim's website to be basically an emulation of the depth and shape of the Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece, the M (Medium) being an emulation of the depth and shape of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C mouthpiece, and the S (Shallow) being a proprietary mouthpiece depth and shape developed by Jim and being about the same depth as a typical Reeves S cup (but not the same shape).
So as all the info above alludes to, Jim has taken some of the best of the "Old" and merged it with some very exciting "New" stuff.
The fact that he has systematically organized his line to where any combo of Rim Shape, Rim Diameter and Cup Depth and Shape can be combined is very attractive.
Best wishes,
John |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: | John Mohan wrote: |
And his 5 rim (cup) diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C. If this rim size is ordered with his M (Medium) cup depth and his S ("Studio") Backbore, one ends up with an exact copy of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C, save for the throat (Arturo's has a #24 Throat where as Jim ships his mouthpieces with a large-ish #27 throat). One could order the mouthpiece with a #24 throat if they want an exact copy right down to the throat size.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
Hi John
Obviously you are right since you have actually tried them, and it can probably be explained by Jim New saying that he measures the inner diameter at the point where contour arcs change direction or the point where a rim meets the bowl or cup of the mouthpiece, but I was very surprised when you mentioned that the 0.650" No. 5 diameter is the exact diameter of Arturo's Mt. Vernon 3C, since the Curry 3C., which as we all know is based on a Mt. Vernon 3C rim but a smaller variant which is more along the lines of the diameter of an Elkhart Bach 3C, has a quoted cup diameter of 0.665".
It is presumably a perfect example of different manufacturers measuring in a different place.
Take Care
Lou |
Yes, this is another perfect example of why one should NEVER rely on numerical measurements. Everybody measures differently. Incidentally, the Curry 3C. is very similar to the Arturo Sandoval MV3C. in that the cup diameters are almost identical. The rims are a little different and the 3C. is slightly shallower. Here's a scan Jim made me years ago comparing them:
Concerning the new James R. New Mouthpieces:
Jim's S rim shape is an exact copy of Arturo's rims shape, Jim's 5 rim diameter is an exact copy of Arturo's rim diameter, Jim's M cup depth is an exact copy of the size (and shape) of the cup of Arturo's mouthpiece and Jim's S backbore is an exact copy of the backbore in Arturo's mouthpiece (in theory that backbore would be a Bach 10, but it's not the same as a Bach 10). As such, when this combo is ordered you end up with a virtual clone of Arturo's mouthpiece (save for the fact that Jim ships with #27 throats and Arturo has a #24 throat in his MV3C, and the slightly different Blank shape).
Not incidentally, I am keeping the S5M/S setup Jim sent, as it will now be my backup mouthpiece to my copy of Arturo's MV3C. And I actually appreciate its (stock) #27 throat. It seems to make the notes from G on top the staff up to G above High C pop out a little easier (at the expense of a brighter sound down lower, and also, for whatever reason, the notes between G above High C and Double High C are easier for me on the #24 throated mouthpiece).
Best wishes,
John |
Hi John
Thank you very much for the clarification, which I found very interesting. I wonder what measurement Jim New would allocate to my 2005 Bach 3C trumpet mouthpiece which he has on file? He has made me some one piece versions, some modular tops and even a screw rim variant. I sent my screw rim 3C to a UK mouthpiece tech along with a Denis Wick 4B for him to convert the 4B to an underpart for my 3C rim, and then modify the transition from my 3C rim into the top of the Denis Wick 4B cup to maintain the cup shape of the Denis Wick 4B. He said that he was very surprised to find that the diameter of my 3C at the point where it joined the top of the 4B cup was larger than that of a Bach 1 1/2C he used for the same conversion, and that my Bach 3C is around the size of an average Bach 1 1/2C in terms of cup diameter.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is going alittle bit weird but also confusing. How is it possible that the HT's MV3C and the W Arturo cup are both copies of Arturo's MtV 3C but that they ate quite different in cup depth?
And am I the only one who really loves the Warburton Arturo cup? |
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Martinharris Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'd also like this thread to stop going so off topic.
One of my custom pieces will be used for classical playing and for this I'd like to warburton to make a cup very similar to the curry 3C cup. Terry made me a Bach 3C cup but it was too shallow, the sound was no where near as nice as the curry cup. Any ideas on what to ask for? (Btw, the MD cup is too deep for me) |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:04 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | This thread is going alittle bit weird but also confusing. How is it possible that the HT's MV3C and the W Arturo cup are both copies of Arturo's MtV 3C but that they ate quite different in cup depth?
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Because the HT is not an exact copy. It is the same* rim with a fractionally shallower cup and a larger opening into a tighter throat. Quite a different set up but designed to make playing it easier without losing articulation ability.
* My experience is that the Curry 3 rim feels more rounded and with less bite than the HT rim. Both feel smaller than the MV 3C rim produced by Breslmair, although they are all in the same rough area. The HT rim feel flatter, possibly due to the bite. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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