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LefreQue Tone Bridge


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boog
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to try a gadget like this, you can do so cheaply with stick-on wheel weights. Do this at your own risk!

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:
If you want to try a gadget like this, you can do so cheaply with stick-on wheel weights. Do this at your own risk!

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.

Right, because if you try an original lefreQue, you might be labeled among the camp of Wayne Bergeron, Steve Dillard, Eric Vloeimans, Bryan Lynch, Mike Sailors, Jon Faddis, Sergiu Carstea, Steven Mead, and many more, who have tried them, and some are continuing to use to this day.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
boog wrote:
If you want to try a gadget like this, you can do so cheaply with stick-on wheel weights. Do this at your own risk!

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.

Right, because if you try an original lefreQue, you might be labeled among the camp of Wayne Bergeron, Steve Dillard, Eric Vloeimans, Bryan Lynch, Mike Sailors, Jon Faddis, Sergiu Carstea, Steven Mead, and many more, who have tried them, and some are continuing to use to this day.

Well, if they help these accomplished pro players they will surely help the average hack.

Seriously, taking your child’s hair tie and a flat tire wheel weight, after bending it to conform to the leadpipe and mouthpiece, will allow one to approximate the lefreQue experience at a significantly lower cost.

This suggestion in no way implies anything about the lefreQue’s product.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
dstpt wrote:
boog wrote:
If you want to try a gadget like this, you can do so cheaply with stick-on wheel weights. Do this at your own risk!

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.

Right, because if you try an original lefreQue, you might be labeled among the camp of Wayne Bergeron, Steve Dillard, Eric Vloeimans, Bryan Lynch, Mike Sailors, Jon Faddis, Sergiu Carstea, Steven Mead, and many more, who have tried them, and some are continuing to use to this day.

Well, if they help these accomplished pro players they will surely help the average hack.

Seriously, taking your child’s hair tie and a flat tire wheel weight, after bending it to conform to the leadpipe and mouthpiece, will allow one to approximate the lefreQue experience at a significantly lower cost.

This suggestion in no way implies anything about the lefreQue’s product.


Not sure how you think that adding relatively thick lead in place of two thin layers of brass or other metals (and platings) -- which are barely in contact with each other -- will provide any approximation of the product.

LefreQue is not about adding mass but about transferring energy and spanning "gaps."

Works for me -- I've got three sets.


-Denny
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
dstpt wrote:
boog wrote:
If you want to try a gadget like this, you can do so cheaply with stick-on wheel weights. Do this at your own risk!

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.

Right, because if you try an original lefreQue, you might be labeled among the camp of Wayne Bergeron, Steve Dillard, Eric Vloeimans, Bryan Lynch, Mike Sailors, Jon Faddis, Sergiu Carstea, Steven Mead, and many more, who have tried them, and some are continuing to use to this day.

Well, if they help these accomplished pro players they will surely help the average hack.

Seriously, taking your child’s hair tie and a flat tire wheel weight, after bending it to conform to the leadpipe and mouthpiece, will allow one to approximate the lefreQue experience at a significantly lower cost.

This suggestion in no way implies anything about the lefreQue’s product.


Not sure how you think that adding relatively thick lead in place of two thin layers of brass or other metals (and platings) -- which are barely in contact with each other -- will provide any approximation of the product.

LefreQue is not about adding mass but about transferring energy and spanning "gaps."

Works for me -- I've got three sets.


-Denny

Well, lead and gold are nearly the same weight. Lead weights don't have to be thick, but if they are they can be thinned quite easily.

Spanning the gap will happen if you have metal to metal.

That said, if it isn't at least partially about adding mass, why do people prefer gold over brass leFreque bridges?

dstpt wrote:
I really wish the solid gold ones weren’t so expensive


Seriously, I know nothing about the bridges except what I have read. Based on that, I think that one could approximate them fairly easily in order to see if I liked them and not shell out a lot of money.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting all confused, trying to deal with quotes within quotes, so...

Denny, which ones do you have, why did you choose them, do you use them on different horns/mpcs, etc?

LittleRusty, I made that comment about the costly solid gold ones, because I tried them, and three professional musicians in the room agreed that the solid gold set had a superior transference of tone/pitch/response/core...especially the core. They said there was particularly a density to the sound that highlighted the overtones more.

Well, I'm spending money on other projects right now, so buying one of those won't be any time soon. Today, I was going through a drawer and came across my "J. Landress Brass Wooden Sleeve Sound Enhancement System." It costs $75, and I need to send it back to Josh to have him widen the cup for my Greg Black mpcs. The mpc won't seat all the way in, so that the shank does not seat fully in the leadpipe. I may try to do that at home, but I know it won't look nearly as pretty. Anyway, the core changed for the positive with it, too, and seemed to be similar to the solid gold lefreQue that I tried nine days ago!

Oh, the CFO with the lefreQue company had emailed me last week that the main thing that the device does is transfer sound over the bridge of the connection point of the mpc to leadpipe, and the purer metals seem to transfer more efficiently.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No quotes this time.

I personally could not spend this type of money. So I was thinking of ways to try it without having to spend the money. Not meaning to imply anything about the actual product, here is my thinking.

* What I have read seems to say that there is a mechanical connection made that bridges the mouthpiece to the leadpipe.
* At least one person feels the Gold works better than the silver or brass. Perhaps this is due to the greater weight of the gold.
* Gold and Lead are similar mass.
* The leFreque version is held on by something that looks similar to a elastic hair tie.

So perhaps one could use a flat piece of lead, like a tire weight, to simulate the product. Fit the metal to the mouthpiece and leadpipe, attach with a hair tie and create a mechanical link. This kludge would allow someone a cheap way to see if it made any difference.
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cjl
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
So perhaps one could use a flat piece of lead, like a tire weight, to simulate the product.
Or perhaps lead tape (like used to add weight on golf clubs) which has also been recommended as a way to get similar results as TweeQers.

-- Joe
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoping to cover both dstpt and LittleRusty ...

I have set of 31mm brass, my first. I felt/heard the difference on a couple of old Conn cornets, an Edwards B-flat, and a Chinese flgl. My wife, without question, strongly preferred the tone and projection with the LefreQues.

Then I bought a set of red brass -- they improve each of the horns but not as much to my liking as the regular brass.

I bought a set of red brass in 76mm (to try on the red brass flglhrn) to span from the mpc to the fixed leadpipe receiver rather than from the mpc to the movable leadpipe -- didn't feel/hear a big difference between this size and the smaller.

The system uses two plates of the same size and shape. One -- to be used on top of the other -- has four tiny feet stamped into the plate that contact the bottom plate only at those points.

A long-distance friend -- university prof and pro player -- questioned my use of them, without ever having experienced them. At the 2018 ITG, he had a chance to hear them and try them on his horns -- he bought some.

I have a local friend -- commercial player; 1st call locally and tours with international groups. We were playing around with them and he found that the D and E above DHC locked in for him as solidly as the DHC, which had never been the case.

I don't see a close parallel between one piece of relatively thick lead -- the only tire weights that I've ever seen have not been thin -- and two pieces of relatively thin brass (or other metal) that are designed to function together as a unified system. I've tried just one of the LefreQue plates and it did nothing compared to the two-plate system.

There are some top woodwind players using them and there is a lot more chatter on the flute forums than on TH. One group is of the opinion that the devices don't work and couldn't work -- snake oil. Another group -- I suspect non-pro players who aren't getting the most out of their instrument, anyway -- says that they have tried them and couldn't tell a difference. Another group was skeptical but tried them and were convinced. Another group is looking for any advantage/improvement that is possible.

Some pro flute players use one -- sometimes solid gold or platinum -- at each joint.

One thing -- on the trumpet, they are a hindrance for any kind of quick mpc change.

-Denny
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don’t understand the choice to keep bringing up the thickness of tire weights, I was curious to see what thickness they are. It turns out they are now steel, probably due to the effects of lead on the environment.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
...I don't see a close parallel between one piece of relatively thick lead -- the only tire weights that I've ever seen have not been thin -- and two pieces of relatively thin brass (or other metal) that are designed to function together as a unified system. I've tried just one of the LefreQue plates and it did nothing compared to the two-plate system.

There are some top woodwind players using them and there is a lot more chatter on the flute forums than on TH. One group is of the opinion that the devices don't work and couldn't work -- snake oil. Another group -- I suspect non-pro players who aren't getting the most out of their instrument, anyway -- says that they have tried them and couldn't tell a difference. Another group was skeptical but tried them and were convinced. Another group is looking for any advantage/improvement that is possible.

Some pro flute players use one -- sometimes solid gold or platinum -- at each joint.

One thing -- on the trumpet, they are a hindrance for any kind of quick mpc change....

Yes, the fact that the device is in two pieces with the little nubs to separate the bulk of each from one another, as I understand their claim, helps to generate more life and transference of mechanical energy...at least, that is what I understand the company to be saying about the product. I don't think that just one alone of the two pieces would render the same effect.

And yes, flute players may be more into these than any other instrument group. The two musicians I met with are flute players. They (and I) could hear notable differences in their individual flute playing. One had a ~$400 model and sounded better with it on the head joint to body of the flute, while the other player had the solid gold model ($3K) on the head joint and a $150 model solid silver unit with gold plate on the foot joint. All three of us agreed that their individual setups were ideal choices, at least in comparing the three that were there.

I have made it clear to the lefreQue CFO that I'd really like to see a change with the "hairband." He assured me that they had tried a myriad of options and found that to be the most beneficial. I actually envision a jeweler creating a clasp that would gently wrap around the mouthpiece. As is with the "hairband," making mouthpiece changes rapidly are problematic.
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roccotrumpetsiffredi
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no way this works other than placebo effect imho.

Have people done double blind assessments?

Placebo effect for a brass is real albeit short lived I believe.

If this little tweak does so much then every trumpet should come with one, certainly every flute.

But like all the Maynard mouthpieces and the random gizmos used by great trumpet player X, it's all bs.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote:
There is no way this works other than placebo effect imho.

Have people done double blind assessments?

Placebo effect for a brass is real albeit short lived I believe.

If this little tweak does so much then every trumpet should come with one, certainly every flute.

But like all the Maynard mouthpieces and the random gizmos used by great trumpet player X, it's all bs.


Rocco --

Have you ever heard someone trying out LefreQues -- with and without?

Have you ever tried LefreQues yourself?


-Denny
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote:
There is no way this works other than placebo effect imho.

Have people done double blind assessments?

Placebo effect for a brass is real albeit short lived I believe.

If this little tweak does so much then every trumpet should come with one, certainly every flute.

But like all the Maynard mouthpieces and the random gizmos used by great trumpet player X, it's all bs.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. Even if you personally could try it you still could only state that it works or not *for you*.

After all some of us have higher levels of performance, better ears, etc.

But I suspect the results will vary from instrument to instrument. Factors like how well the mouthpiece seats in the receiver, on a flute how much the metal is in contact in the joint vs heavily greased, is the mouthpiece twisted after inserting, etc.

But I am willing to bet that the average hack probably won’t find much benefit.

One question for those who have tried this on a trumpet, have you also tried it on tuning slide joints? Those are probably more likely to have less mechanical engagement than the mouthpiece.
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roccotrumpetsiffredi
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote:
There is no way this works other than placebo effect imho.

Have people done double blind assessments?

Placebo effect for a brass is real albeit short lived I believe.

If this little tweak does so much then every trumpet should come with one, certainly every flute.

But like all the Maynard mouthpieces and the random gizmos used by great trumpet player X, it's all bs.


Rocco --

Have you ever heard someone trying out LefreQues -- with and without?

Have you ever tried LefreQues yourself?


-Denny


I have not tried one and I don't doubt some people having betters ears than me or many others. Really I would just want honest testing where both player and listener would be blindfolded and for sure I would want the best ears to judge the various versions/iterations.

I remain open minded, just would like more rigorous testing.

I may be think too much of playing the trumpet is non mechanical/equipment related.

I believe in the bill Adam breakdown, 90% mental, 9% how you blow, 1% everything else. The changes I've made to my sound through good old fashioned hard work and practice could not have been done with a piece of metal on elastic bands supporting an already sealed mouthpiece /leadpipe joint.

To the above point, there would be other areas of the trumpet that could also be enhanced, of course if such an enhancement were possible.
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Dillard's Lefreque comparison on Selmer 80J

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=_l6cwvA_FAY
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several months ago, when I dropped off a few horns for Steve to sell for me, he demonstrated a silver LeFreque for me in that very same room in the video. I could certainly hear a positive change in sound with the LeFreque on his horn. I thought he was kidding when he mentioned the price (too rich for my blood) and didn't give it another thought.

I'm going to look around for that lead tape that I once purchased for my tennis racquets to see if that makes any difference. I'll report back.
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roccotrumpetsiffredi
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't there diagnostic tools that can measure any change?

And for Steve Dillard or anyone else, he should not know when it is attached and when it is not else he will be influenced.

This is really one of the sillier trumpet gadgets.

For what it's worth I think the heavy mouthpiece thing is equally ridiculous.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roccotrumpetsiffredi, Can you hear any difference in sound in Steve's YouTube video, with and without the LeFreque?
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hose
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried a silver (the cheapest LeFreque) in my gold plated Powell. There was no difference that I could hear or feel. However, Powell receivers are designed to fit (contact) the whole mpc shank. This is supposed to make a difference in transfer of vibration. I did notice a slight difference in another silver plated trumpet. Seemed to give a little more core to the sound.
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