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Full Time RI?


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Webbsta78
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:20 pm    Post subject: Full Time RI? Reply with quote

Anyone attempting this?

With a bit of focused practice on this, particularly regarding articulation, I feel like it could be a possibility.

Just wanted to see if there's anybody venturing down this road, and if so, any wisdom to share?

Jason
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AndrewS
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go for it if it works for you.

But! BE is wary of direct embouchure changes since it almost never leads to positive results (when you forcefully impose something).
BE favors organic changes that grow from using the whole spectrum of the exercises which do lead you to the positive and lasting change.
RI is not an "embouchure", if anything, it's a very limited/extreme version of a high range setting designed just to be an exercise which pushes your apparatus to move to a better/balanced position.
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Webbsta78
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree that direct changes are not encouraged.

But! It is specifically mentioned in the book that some people transition to a full time RI for their normal playing. That was where my question leads. I'm looking for BE players that have attempted this and want to hear of their successes and roadblocks.

Jason
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AndrewS
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is specifically mentioned in the book that some people transition to a full time RI for their normal playing.


Yeah, that would be interesting to hear from them. My guess these people would have long upper lips (lip goes below the upper teeth ridge) so that even when you roll in, your aperture would still be in the gap between lower and upper teeth. A la James Morrison.
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Webbsta78
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, this describes my facial setup exactly. I have very large top and bottom lips, and probably the biggest change that the BE exercises have wrought would be to teach me to keep the top lip in the cup as I ascend in range.

Jason
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Bert
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am doing a fulltime switch. I have been doing BE for years, I teach it, and I benefitted from it tremendously, as do my pupils, especially the 'basket cases'.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would not recommend it if your RI is far from easy, or even close to easy. I only started this road when through a simple discovery, my RI changed completely. I always had trouble doing RI, until I put my mouthpiece higher (much higher than I ever did. It felt as if I played in the red of my bottom lip, but that being rolled in completely, was not the case) and suddenly it was as if I simply saw how to play the trumpet from now on. It felt completely right and easy, and completely different from everything I did before this discovery. I don't know why this took me so long to discover, but I think 13 years of BE and other methods simply kicked in at some point. Some people are fast, some are not, haha.

Now I am doing this for more than half a year and I just played my first concert rolled in. It is still not perfect, but I can do it. The only thing I still cannot do, is improvise this way. The strange thing is that my old chops do not really fade away. I couldn't play the whole concert on my old chops anymore, but when I have a solo, it is the easiest thing to switch to my old chops and play. I always played better when I simply improvise, so apaarantly there must be something very natural that I do when I improvise that won't fade away at all.
Eventually I want to play everything on one setup, but that still needs some work.

The benefits of my switch are that I can play long high notes, ballads and more and more classical and other sheet music with much more confidence and ease.

So, only if you have this kind of revelation, would I recommend a direct switch. I have had one or two students which had the same, and simply sounded better on RI, and who did it with such ease that it was ridiculous NOT to pursue it that way. In all other cases, just do the exercises and benefit from it.

Cheers, Bert
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Bert
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, forgot to mention:

-I play RO everyday! You MUST do that to balance things. When everything works, I feel a lot of RO in my RI setup, however strange that may sound.
-I have a simple warmup routine of about 10 minutes that I do on my 'old' chops, just to keep feeling what that feels like, just in case the RI thing collapses completely .
-I didn't play only RI from the beginning of my little discovery. I started doing the exercises in the book more often and started to make up variations, tongue them, play them upside down, scales, double tongue etc. When time went by, I found myself spending more and more time playing RI instead of my normal playing, but still there is a bit of that in every practice session.

The hard part is still playing low notes with a RI setup. In half a year I gained an octave below C in the staff!. I can play below low C now, but tonguing it, or just playing a low B, A or whatever from scratch is still not possible. In half a year it will be, I am certain.
Anyway, I kind of kept using common sense. Although I feel that it is the right path, it is not easy to make the switch. What keeps me going is that my old chops are still pretty reliable, I can always play up to par, although it starts to get a bit harder now that RI is becoming more of a habit.
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AndrewS
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The hard part is still playing low notes with a RI setup


This is very interesting. Somehow I thought of using RI for normal playing is like using falsetto voice for normal singing. Yes, it can get you higher notes, but the tone and range will always suffer.
Also I can see how your balanced embouchure (a fair amount of RI and RO) can get you a fff volume in the upper register and those Arturo Sandoval overtones, but using RI for your normal playing will probably reduce the fullness of sound and dynamics.
I guess, as it happens in nature, there are some freak cases that defeat the common sense and anything is possible, especially in the trumpet world
So yes, if RI works for normal playing, why not use it.
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Bert
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is very interesting. Somehow I thought of using RI for normal playing is like using falsetto voice for normal singing. Yes, it can get you higher notes, but the tone and range will always suffer.


In a certain sense you are right, of course. RI is not meant to be used as a normal embouchure. What I am doing is using RI as my starting point and develop from there. Actually that is not so much different from developing an embouchure from low C, like many methods do. Yes, at first range (even the high register above high C!) suffers, and surely tone and dynamics suffer, but like everything: you can develop this and get better at it.
I have to be honest and state that I have no idea where development ends, but I am almost at a point that I can use this very rolled in setting as my normal embouchure without loss of tone and range and it feels much more efficient than my old setup.
My old setup is beyond development. That is at least how it feels to me. I can play great with it, I have great flexibility, nice tone and ok range, but it deteriorates quickly after some time and tone suffers, range suffers and most of all, control suffers. I have my little tricks to keep playing and be able to sound good (playing lighting fast is one of these things, I am happy to have very fast fingers, but the moment a long tone comes, I am gone...), but it feels absolutely terrible and out of control at some point.
Mpc placement is too low to let the top lip vibrate as efficient as it should, and most of my embouchure is controlled by (a rolling in and out)bottom lip and air. This I learned through BE, and that has helped me a lot already. My RI setup is almost diametrically the opposite and doesn't compare at all to my old setup. The top lip is doing much more, or better: is able to do much more, and my bottom lip feels like a rock solid foundation (lots of RO muscles involved here!). As long as I feel this shape, my tone and control stays the same. Only if I get tired and cannot hold this shape any longer, the setup collapses and playing this way isn't longer possible (playing with my old chops can take over for a while, so I don't risk a total collapse of being able to play).
It is hard to explain why I am going down this road, because my old setup has its benefits, but the new way feels like it isn't even near the end of development, and on the best moments it is really easier than ever to play. In the moments (and these are getting longer and more) that everything falls in place, I finally understand how some people can play the way they play: it isn't hard at all anymore. Almost like playing the recorder: just blow air through this shape and everything sounds the way it should. Wow, never had that before. Untill then, I keep practicing it, and maybe in some near future I can make it all the way.
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AndrewS
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I finally understand how some people can play the way they play: it isn't hard at all anymore. Almost like playing the recorder: just blow air through this shape and everything sounds the way it should.


Yep, I know how it feels, Bert! From what you describe it feels like you just are just trying to make the next "direct" change, which is perfectly fine!
To be honest, I think Jeff cheated a little when he said that BE is mostly about the indirect change
BE is more like a path of self discovery, a muddy path with some stepping stones on it. By jumping from one stepping stone to another, you make direct changes to your embouchure, when you have the sense that the direction is right. At least that's how it feels to me. I guess there are some lucky people who find their way to balance through some indirect changes by just doing the exercises.
To me it always felt like some kernel is about to pop, which forced me to take a risk and do some direct change. I guess your path is similar to mine, even though you are a pro and I am just an amateur
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Bert
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Up till now my experience was that of indirect change. I did the exercises and my embouchure changed from a very open and cramped setup, to a much more centered and forward kind of setup. This just happenend. I didn't do any direct change. Also with my students I always encourage to simply do the exercises and see what happens.
For me as a pro and a very inquisitive teacher, I want to know what happens if I take this or that direction, but I cannot ask that of my students. I want to give them a reliable path to improvement. So, in the years that I have been doing BE, I experimented a lot, not always with good success, but at least I learned something. This is the first time in years though, that I do a direct change. The last time I did that is many years ago. I didn't know what I did, my teacher neither, so it was a disaster. It doesn't feel that way now, but apart from few people that really do much better with RI, I won't tell them to change in a direct way.
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tjilp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm new to this BE forum. I started with BE about April 2016. With lots of doubts, though, because I'm NOT of the unconscious or indirect approach and I mistrust religiously held convictions. On the other hand, any method can only have success if you go for it. And so I did, although at the same time I kept experimenting with other approaches (I still like Charlie Porter's youtube channel) - not necessarily contradictory to BE.

One of my insights so far, is that -for me- a more rolled-in embouchure makes it a lot easier to play in all registers (*) (especially high, of course), even without any warmup.
I don't do that much of the RI exercises though. I found them very hard in the beginning (not now anymore), so I concentrated on LC and LCS.
I developed a kind of RI buzzing (w/o mpc): produce some LCS tone, trying to keep it stable for a long time. Then do small intervals downward (like RI #3 and 4) and upward. Downward you can ultimately reach and overlap the register of normal free buzzing. I do this through the day, on the bike or driving a car. Don't overdo when you have to perform.

I chose to radically and fundamentally change my embouchure, by intensively practicing the BE approach. For some time my embouchure was completely disoriented, which had embarrassing consequences for performances and rehearsals this year, but gradually I returned to my old range again, and beyond. With much more stamina and control, and a better sound. And this development still goes on!

So, BE gives me a fundamental insight in how (my) embouchure works and what muscles/coordination/posture to train. For me this wasn't very much an unconscious or indirect approach. I don't have the patience for that, I guess.

Cheers!
Maarten

(*) I may have a tiny bit of protruding toplip


Last edited by tjilp on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Full Time RI? Reply with quote

Webbsta78 wrote:
Anyone attempting this?

With a bit of focused practice on this, particularly regarding articulation, I feel like it could be a possibility.

Just wanted to see if there's anybody venturing down this road, and if so, any wisdom to share?

Jason


There's a great video on youtube of Thomas Hooten talking about his own early embouchure explorations with Amado Ghitella - which was essentially a change to a Roll In embouchure. The most important thing is really to trust your own ears and your own body and not try and force theory into practice, but let practice inform your theory.
Hooten talks about how he had been working on this embouchure change with G. for 9 months following his instructions exactly when G. finally said "You know Tom, I don't think we're doing the right thing here." Sounds like he had a bit of a meltdown then, but he realised that it's not enough to simply apply the theory. You have to be flexible and allow compromise and to trust your own judgement of the result.
He started doing that when G. said it wasn't working, and suddenly it started working because he allowed his own judgement (of the result out the bell) to inform what he was doing.

Not sure if that's helpful, but that really stuck with me as a good lesson.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Maarten, thanks for the insightful post.

Welcome to the Trumpet Herald!

Jeff
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm knowledgeable of BE, but am not a practicing BE-er. However, I play RI all of the time. This is not something that I did intentionally or by design. Its just the way that I setup.
The higher I play, the more in everything goes.
I'm not advocating this approach. Honestly, I think it is a real inhibitor for me. But, I have the sound/endurance/range to do the things that I want to do so it doesn't knock me out of the game.
I have experimented for years in neutralizing the amount of roll in. But, things always kind of go back to where they like to be.
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tjilp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Hey Maarten, thanks for the insightful post.

Welcome to the Trumpet Herald!

Jeff


Hi Jeff,
Thank you -so much- for the insightful method!

It's a systematic approach to cure any kind of embouchure defect, I think.
I wasn't playing that bad, but didn't know how to overcome a bad habit (of "losing my upper lip" when going up) that was keeping me from further range development.
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tjilp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recognize what Bert says about keep doing RO's. Playing more RI-oriented doesn't mean neglecting the other components of BE! In my case, I'm also heavily practicing TOLs (both low and high) and double tonguing. And Arban.

One other remark: thru my "extended LCS" exercises (see above) I get more feeling for the triangle of muscles that form the actual pinhole. The upper lip is one muscle, the lower lip consists of two. Varying and coordinating the tension of these muscles makes the LCS tone higher or lower.
(I wondered if the logo of BE was depicting this constellation, but to my disappointment the BE logo is the upside down version of it)
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erstrad
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Responding to Bert's posts in this thread)
(from 9-16-16, 4:58 am) I have also been practicing BE for years (since 2005) and have benefited tremendously from it. I still do the book exercises regularly. RI did not come naturally or easy at first, but I did it as closely as I could apply the book instructions for about a month. It slowly got easier and the sound improved, and it continues to improve years later.
Quote:
I only started this road when through a simple discovery, my RI changed completely. I always had trouble doing RI, until I put my mouthpiece higher (much higher than I ever did...

I also made a slight alteration to how I played the RI exercises but not by shifting the mouthpiece higher. After setting the mouthpiece on rolled in lips I relaxed the lips slightly but keeping the focus forward. This seemed to make the aperture bigger and so the sound opened up, similar to the examples on the BE CD.
Quote:
The benefits of my switch are that I can play long high notes, ballads and more and more classical and other sheet music with much more confidence and ease.

This is also true for me.
Quote:
(from 9-16-16, 5:16 am) -I play RO everyday! You MUST do that to balance things. When everything works, I feel a lot of RO in my RI setup, however strange that may sound. -I have a simple warmup routine of about 10 minutes that I do on my 'old' chops, just to keep feeling what that feels like, ...

This is also true for me.
It has developed from a warmup that I used for years then adapted for BE practice. Since RI was so difficult for me at first I emphasized practicing in this setup. My warmup was, and still is, major arpeggios starting with C as high as I can and descending, ending on the first pedal C below middle C. Then descending arpeggios by half steps until the last, 13th, arpeggio ends on double pedal C. All of these are done starting in RI and keeping the mouthpiece on the lips during each arpeggio. I think from this routine I also "feel a lot of RO in my RI setup."
The RO has helped me realize the importance of the bottom lip in the embouchure. Before BE I emphasized the top lip and neglected the bottom, resulting in an unbalanced embouchure! Now I try to "push the bottom lip" against the mouthpiece, in a controlled way, to support the mouthpiece so the top lip can vibrate. By the way, more and more I feel as though it is the top lip that vibrates while the bottom lip provides support. I roll the bottom lip to control the air and the frequency of the buzz.
My old embouchure has slowly faded away as the setup resulting from daily BE practice has replaced it.
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tjilp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm going a bit too much off-topic now, but responding to the previous poster (erstrad) about RO:

Since a month or so, I'm practicing the regular pedals (the real 0th partials) instead of the doubles, because I feel they are much more effective on my RO capacity. I'm much more forced to rollout when descending to the low register when I have to connect to the regular pedal register, so it really changes my lip setup. (Also seems to improve intonation in the low register, which has a tendency to be too low)

The regular pedals are (like the doubles) quite difficult in the beginning. Go the hard way or start on a flugelhorn.

By the way, I've always wondered why the regular pedals were completely left out of the BE method. Jeff?
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tjilp wrote:
Maybe I'm going a bit too much off-topic now, but responding to the previous poster (erstrad) about RO:

Since a month or so, I'm practicing the regular pedals (the real 0th partials) instead of the doubles, because I feel they are much more effective on my RO capacity. I'm much more forced to rollout when descending to the low register when I have to connect to the regular pedal register, so it really changes my lip setup. (Also seems to improve intonation in the low register, which has a tendency to be too low)

The regular pedals are (like the doubles) quite difficult in the beginning. Go the hard way or start on a flugelhorn.

By the way, I've always wondered why the regular pedals were completely left out of the BE method. Jeff?



I have the opposite experience. Pedals Stampian way for 15 years - now compared to double pedals roll out way one year - what a difference!
Now I can play roll in from high C to first pedal C much more resonant and in tune than ever. So for me the bottom line of the BE seems to be the combination of roll in and roll out; my lips have grown flexible in a way that is astonishing (to me at least). Never happened with Stamp/simple pedals. Besides that to me the tones below F#-staff bottom down to first pedal C feel like fakes! In comparison to double pedal C down to F#. Can be fingered quite easily (after a while....).Like discovering you have another room behind a closed door in your system.
Not to mention the "trouble" C:s....but they feel like fakes - trombone-section staring bit weird at me.
But...that just me
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