Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:48 am Post subject: New trumpet Maker, Jérôme Wiss
Hello everyone,
My Name is Jérôme Wiss and i'm a brass maker in France.
Until now, i make Ophicléide, Mouthpieces for Euphonium/Saxhorn, and the reson why i'm here, it's because i build now a 100% new trumpet with a new valve system and total conception of the acoustic by computer.
You can see the first one on my website, the new model will be finished next week.
Everything is made in France by myself, from the conception to the polishing and the valve casing....Couple of years before, i was working in the Courtois factory , and i work for different company but now i'm on my own.
I hope you can read my english, because i'm not as good as i would like to be. And of course, if anyone as any question about the trumpet, just ask and i will try to answer correctly.
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2197 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:55 am Post subject:
salut Jérôme
i'll be back in paris in 10 days and want to drop by to say hello
and to check out your horns.
that trumpet bell looks cool
a+
ron _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com http://highdefinitionbigband.com
Last edited by homebilly on Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Looks really awesome - is that what is known as a "compensating" valve system?
Good luck to you and your original ideas and design!
Concerning the valve system, it's the oposite of a compensating system.
For me, the compensating system is the worst system ever made because your valves are like a Swiss cheese (with a lot of holes). And that is very bad for the sound. My system as only 2 tube per valve (normaly 3) and without any strangulation on the bore. Normaly, everything is explain here http://jeromewiss.com/en/fabrication-en/piston-wiss-system/
If you have more question about this system, just ask
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2197 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:21 am Post subject:
NevadaBigHorn wrote:
Very interesting. I'm interested to hear how they sound and hear feedback from a veteran player.
i volunteer ! _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com http://highdefinitionbigband.com
Joined: 01 Aug 2015 Posts: 19 Location: Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:43 am Post subject:
Fascinating-looking instrument. Love the way your top bracing references your snake logo. Like dstpt, I'm interested to know if this has an acoustic argument, or is more for aesthetics, as well as your other answers to that comprehensive list.
I found a couple of videos are on YouTube, for anyone interested:
To answer (i hope) correctly, i quote your question where i will respond in bold
dstpt wrote:
Unique indeed. Kudos, Jerome, if for nothing else, for furthering the exploration in trumpet design. A few questions:
• Re: the top bracing between leadpipe and bell: Is there a noticeable acoustic advantage to this part of your design? Did you try other possibilities, or was this largely a visually artistic choice with little influence from an acoustic vantage point? My guess is that you will say that your decision to use these braces has specific acoustic advantages, probably placed at strategic nodes/anti-nodes. If so, what advantages have you discovered with these braces with little contact between the leadpipe and bell compared to other designs?
To be 100% honnest with you, it's onlu for the visual, because my logo is a snake (because the first instrument i build is the ophicléide and it's the son of the "serpent" snake ). All my acoustic research concern the bore of the instrument. For some reason i use different brass metal but, the metal change a only extremely very little things on the instrument. For example, i make 6 differents bell for testing ( silver, brass, red brass, gold brass, nickel silver, bronze) and build a removable atachement on the prototype for trying the 6 bell very quickly. Honnestly, the changement in the sound for the public don't change, but the sensation, when you play are just a little different. If i say that it's because, the very important part of the instrument is not the material or heavy button cup or anything like this, but the shape of the instrument from the mouthpiece to the bell, that is very important.
• Re: the last part of the bell flare. This appears to be more v-shaped toward the bell rim, or longer or "slower" flare out to the rim, than most trumpets I have seen. What kind of acoustic advantage did you find with this part of your design?
To explain why i do a bell like this on my first trumpet it's because i'm an euphonium player. And because of that i prefer a warm sound who is good for the ear and very charming than a very clear sound who will be "tiresome?" for the public. But that it's only my opinion and everyone as his own opinion to this subject. So, this part of the bell play a major role on the constitution of the sound. It's like a filter and, more this part is big, more the sound spectrum will be low in register.
• What are the inner diameters of tubing at the venturi and when the tuning slide begins? Is the tubing uniform in diameter from the point of the tuning slide, through the valve casing, and until the bell flare, or are there any other changes in tubing size between those two outer points of the tuning slide and bell flare?
For the beginning of the principal tuning slide where you have a double tube sliding (like a Malone leadpipe) the bore is 11.4mm .It is small like this because, a part of the tuning slide is a conical. The end of the tube bending is 11.70mm.
The complete valve casing is a full 11.70mm not like other instrument where you have strangulation on every "krooks". So when you don't push any valve, from the 2nd part of the principal tuning slide to the bell it's 11.70 mm.
• How does a player empty condensation, knowing that pulling slides and putting them back in is not always practical?
He make like french horn player.... i'm joking. If the musician want a water key i can install 1 or 2 on the instrument, it's not a problem.
• Re: the path of the vibrating air column as valves are added. You have eliminated a 1st and 3rd slide adjustment of any kind, which is different than how many professional B-flat trumpets have been made in the past several decades. You have stated on your website that these adjustments are not necessary. We know that the twelfth root of 2 (equal-tempered chromatic scale) requires adjustments as tubing is added. How do these adjustments occur with your design? I see two different tubes between the 1st and 2nd valve casing, so I presume the air column path takes the longer of the two if valves 1-2-3 are depressed, and that it takes the shorter of the two for 2-3. However, it doesn't appear to have a variable between 1-3 and 1-2-3, or for that matter, between 1 and 1-2. Can you explain/confirm the path for each of these valve combinations and how the 0.059... difference in our equal-tempered chromatic scale is included for each of these half steps: 0, 2, 1-2, 2-3, 1-3, 1-2-3?
The complete trumpet is equal-tempered from the low F# to the high C. You just have to ask every player who try this instrument. To explain this quickly, it's possible because i do more than 150 hours of virtual calculation on the shape of the instrument. And with some tricks on the bore, you can have every note perfectly in tune without any tuning slide.
The first time when the musician try the instrument they say" it's weird, we don't have to correct" but after 15 minutes of playing thay say" we can easyli forget to push the tuning slide now".
• Continuing with the valve slide question, here's what I've noticed, at least from what I can see from your website pictures:
1st and 3rd valve have independent slides, whereas 2nd is treated as an intermediary with variables in tubing, pending the involvement of the other two valves. Connected to the 2nd valve casing are three tubes: (A) a tube on top, connecting the 1st to 2nd valve casing; (B) a longer tube, lower on the casings than no. 1, connecting the 1st and 2nd valve casing; and (C) the shortest of all tubes, connecting the 2nd to 3rd valve casing. Let us know the route for each valve combination, including open. Thanks!
Sometimes a draw is better than an explanation
Link for the picture :
http://wp.me/a7WRg7-ep
I hope you have understand everything that i wrote.... My english is really not the best...
Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 643 Location: Givat Shmuel, Israel
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject:
I wish Jérôme Wiss great success. This is very exciting and from what I understand he has invented a truly unique trumpet with a one of a kind piston system, ingenious in minimizing an age old problematic intonation weak points, apparently in a much simpler way than ever before.
Maybe Jérôme can eventually do the following:
1. Design a C trumpet in an effort to greatly reduce its common intonation quirks.
2. Try to also offer a more "regular" shaped bell. I just think it would be more attractive and maybe help make his trumpet more acceptable, from a marketing standpoint (not that I'm an expert). _________________ Michael Greenberg
It's allready the case. Normaly next week i can introduce you the new Bb with a "regular" shape of the bell. But allways with my piston valve and with an other calculation of the acoustic. For the C trumpet, the bell and everything is allready done, i just have to make some new parts for the next valve casing. The C trumpet would be finished for the end of this year, or maybe January.
Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 643 Location: Givat Shmuel, Israel
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:25 pm Post subject:
Jeromewiss wrote:
Thank you Micheal,
It's allready the case. Normaly next week i can introduce you the new Bb with a "regular" shape of the bell. But allways with my piston valve and with an other calculation of the acoustic. For the C trumpet, the bell and everything is allready done, i just have to make some new parts for the next valve casing. The C trumpet would be finished for the end of this year, or maybe January.
Thank you Jérôme This is wonderful. _________________ Michael Greenberg
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2159 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject:
What dstpt said. There is no free lunch. Every time you lengthen the air column of a trumpet by pushing down a valve, the trumpet in essence becomes a lower pitched instrument and all the slides that were the correct length for the open trumpet are now too short.
In other words, when you push down the second valve, a Bb trumpet in essence becomes an A trumpet and the slides need to be longer. The more valves you push down, the lower pitched the trumpet becomes and the more the slides are too short. That is why the low C sharp fingered 1,2 and 3 is so sharp.
My understanding is that there are two ways for a trumpet designer to deal with this, other than adding extra tubing and ports in the valves to make the instrument fully-compensating. Either the slide lengths can be "averaged" so the out of tune notes are spread over all the valve combitions and are therefore less noticable; or the slide lengths can be the correct for the open-valve Bb horn and tuning aids (rings, saddles, etc.) added to enable the player to lengthen the slides when certain valve combinations are used.
Cheaper horns usually average-out the slide lengths, while better horns have the tuning aids. How does this new design get around the laws of physics and accoustics?
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2159 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:20 pm Post subject:
No computer can come up with a workable solution that violates the laws of physics and accoustics. I assume your computer has found a better way to average the slide lengths so intonation problems are less noticable and easier to lip in tune. Great. But I would rather "lip" less and use tuning aids for a better sound and less embouchure fatigue.
If I am wrong about your intonation solution, please correct me with a scientific explanation, rather than just anecdotal evidence gathered from players I do not know. Thank you.
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i'm joking. If the musician want a water key i can install 1 or 2 on the instrument, it's not a problem.
and maybe help make his trumpet more acceptable, from a marketing standpoint (not that I'm an expert).