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trumpet.sanity Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: 1st valve trigger or hook |
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Any of y'all like a trigger vs. thumb hook on your first valve slide?
Any pros of cons you might share with me please? Found a trumpet I'm interested in, but never played one with a trigger before.
Thanks for any imput |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Based on previous TH discussion as well as conversations at gigs, most people prefer a saddle/hook/ring.
I have a trigger on my Bach Bb, as well as the previous one that it replaced. The way the trigger is made I have always used it as a right hand trigger and I like not having to relax my grip when adjusting tuning on the first valve like I would have to if I had a saddle/hook/ring.
My kanstul picc also has a trigger. My C and flugel both have a saddle. |
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trumpet.sanity Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, do you find it hard to open the 1st slide with the trigger, and open the third valve slide at the same time?
Seems like contrary motion to push your thumb forward, and open your ring finger out at the same time.
No? |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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trumpet.sanity wrote: | Thanks, do you find it hard to open the 1st slide with the trigger, and open the third valve slide at the same time?
Seems like contrary motion to push your thumb forward, and open your ring finger out at the same time.
No? |
Actually it is contrary to push the first valve crook towards one's face (<==) and the third valve crook away (==>), right?
Seriously, I don't find it is an issue. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Here is my preference for first valve slide:
1) Trigger
2) Ring
3) Saddle
4) Nothing
However, if I liked the horn, it wouldn't matter to me which the horn came with.
However, when it comes to third valve slide, I've passed on horns that had an underslung ring, a la old Bessons and recent Callets. |
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Goldplate Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 152
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really care for triggers. I am a tense enough player already, and it seems like squeezing triggers just makes me that much more tense. Having triggers on the 1st and 3rd slides is easier for me than my horns with just 1st valve triggers. |
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Ed Hernandez Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2010 Posts: 335 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Personally I prefer 1st valve ring, however I seldom use it. I owned a SIMA for a few years, which has no 1st valve ring/hook/trigger, and realized I never missed it. _________________ "If you find a job you really like, you'll never work a day in your life".
Yamaha YTR 9335 NY
Yamaha 8310Z Flugel |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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The positioning of my left hand has always felt awkward on horns with first valve slide triggers. To me, keeping the left thumb on the trigger button makes the grip of the left hand seem much less secure than if the first valve slide is controlled via a hook or ring. I have four horns with a first valve slide trigger: Selmer K-Modified, Conn Connstellation, Olds Opera and Olds Mendez. The most awkward one for me is the Selmer but the others aren't far behind.
All but three of my other horns that have an adjusting first valve slide have a first valve slide hook. The three that don't have a hook have a ring (Mt. Vernon Bach Strad 37, King Super 20 Symphony Silver Sonic and Adams A8.) I like the ring the best because it gives the most secure feel for the left hand grip and is the easiest to operate. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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My preference:
1. Saddle
2. Ring
3. Nothing
4. Trigger
I've never owned a horn with a ring on the first slide, though I've played some and they seem fine. My Radial is almost a ring, it's a ring shaped saddle and it's fine.
Triggers are highly dependent on the trigger mechanism and stiffness, for me. I operate the saddle/ring with the left thumb, so it seems normal to operate a trigger with the left thumb. Some trigger mechanisms make that difficult with their placement for my fairly small hands. The trigger on an old English Besson I have seems Ok. Same with the Conn 28B - they don't seem heavy and the placement isn't horrific. The Getzen horns I have with triggers (older Capri trumpet and cornet) aren't too heavy, either. The trigger on my Bach 184 cornet fails on both accounts - the placement is poor for my left thumb and the spring and action is extremely stiff. I could probably get a lighter action on the spring, but frankly, I prefer saddle/rings anyway. The vintage horns, I'll live with as is (at least for now) but the I used to play on a Bach 184 with a saddle and will have mine modified likewise at some point. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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tptguy Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3380 Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Assuming the rest of the horn has been designed well (admittedly a big assumption), the less dampening on the 1st slide the better. Therefore for sound, focus, and intonation a ring is a much better option than a trigger, and a hook is better than a ring. And the best sound out front is with no addition. Nonetheless, many symphony players feel naked without some mechanical assistance. For them, a hook on a male upper with long reach hook is the best compromise. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2327 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:06 am Post subject: |
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tptguy wrote: | Assuming the rest of the horn has been designed well (admittedly a big assumption), the less dampening on the 1st slide the better. Therefore for sound, focus, and intonation a ring is a much better option than a trigger, and a hook is better than a ring. And the best sound out front is with no addition. Nonetheless, many symphony players feel naked without some mechanical assistance. For them, a hook on a male upper with long reach hook is the best compromise. |
This...
I bought a Bach 184 Cornet eons ago that had a trigger mechanism, I had it removed and replaced with a Bach style thumb saddle, mostly for similarity with my other Bach's (I wanted it to look and feel like my other instruments). I do think the playability of the Cornet improved as well. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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trumpet.sanity Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks guys. All good stuff. I appreciate it. |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I prefer hooks/saddles over triggers in general. I've never had a horn with a ring. Although I find that most triggers make it awkward for me to grip the valve block, the King Silver Flair has a much friendlier trigger; the lever is to the right of the 1st valve rather than directly behind it. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Last edited by mm55 on Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Saddle/ring, 1st and 3rd valve slides. If nothing else, it makes it easy to remove the slides. Best 1st valve set up is like Schilke uses, with the saddle canted to about 11 o'clock and inline with the slide. fits the angle of the thumb better and is not in the way of my right thumb. I hate the long and upright set up Bach uses on the stock horns, the ring on the Artisan and better horns works better for me. Triggers, to me, are just one more mechanical thing to go wrong in a pinch. Murphy finds his way into music, too. |
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Bucaneer61 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Buckhannon, WV
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: |
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My trumpets all have saddles, rings & hooks - with the 28B having only a 3rd slide ring & the Radial C having a 1st slide saddle and an underslung 3rd ring. The cornet has a 1st slide trigger & an adjustable 3rd slide ring, the pic & flugel with have 3rd slide triggers. I switch between all with zero trouble. YMMV
Michael _________________ Selmer Radial Bb ML - Jan., 1972
Selmer Radial C XL - Jan., 1972
Getzen 580S cornet - c. 1973
Blessing Artist Flugelhorn, rose brass bell
Accent Picc by B & S
Conn 28B Concert Grand Bb - 1925
Martin Handcraft Imperial - 1937 |
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p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1070 Location: The Golden City of OZ
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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You know, it's weird - on trumpets definitely prefer a saddle, but with a cornet it's a trigger or nothing.
Often wondered why it's like that for me - is it habit, because that's just how my instruments have mostly been configured? Or is there something different about the way I approach each horn that makes the saddle work for trumpet and trigger for cornet?
I have never got on with trigger trumpets or saddle/ring cornets...
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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Bucaneer61 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Buckhannon, WV
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I had a k-modified with a trigger years ago and got along with it very well. All the later tpts have saddles/rings. Who knows how our minds work. All I know is that I've never had problems either way.
Michael _________________ Selmer Radial Bb ML - Jan., 1972
Selmer Radial C XL - Jan., 1972
Getzen 580S cornet - c. 1973
Blessing Artist Flugelhorn, rose brass bell
Accent Picc by B & S
Conn 28B Concert Grand Bb - 1925
Martin Handcraft Imperial - 1937 |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I have a cornet and a flugel with triggers; the rest have saddles and rings. The triggers seemed odd at first, but I liked them once I got used to them.
The instruments with triggers feel more secure and stable in my hand, and I feel that I can make slide adjustments faster and easier with the triggers. The downside is that it takes time to disassemble the triggers when cleaning the instrument--especially the first time. It gets easier after that.
I don't feel that the pros/cons are strong enough to make me want to switch an instrument with one system over to the other. I get along with either. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1531 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:54 pm Post subject: First valve |
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Hello all,
I bought a Schilke XA1 that had a thumb ring already installed. I loved it. I have put or ordered thumb rings on all my horns. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | My preference:
1. Saddle
2. Ring
3. Nothing
4. Trigger
I've never owned a horn with a ring on the first slide, though I've played some and they seem fine. My Radial is almost a ring, it's a ring shaped saddle and it's fine.
Triggers are highly dependent on the trigger mechanism and stiffness, for me. I operate the saddle/ring with the left thumb, so it seems normal to operate a trigger with the left thumb. Some trigger mechanisms make that difficult with their placement for my fairly small hands. The trigger on an old English Besson I have seems Ok. Same with the Conn 28B - they don't seem heavy and the placement isn't horrific. The Getzen horns I have with triggers (older Capri trumpet and cornet) aren't too heavy, either. The trigger on my Bach 184 cornet fails on both accounts - the placement is poor for my left thumb and the spring and action is extremely stiff. I could probably get a lighter action on the spring, but frankly, I prefer saddle/rings anyway.
Hi
I know that we have all discussed this before, but I really can't see anything wrong with the placement of the Bach 184ML trigger for the left thumb. Although admittedly over towards the right, the trigger leaver seems angled to be used by the left thumb. I don't know. Maybe it is because I had only been playing for a year when I bought the Bach 184ML and it was my primary horn for thee next eighteen years, that it became the norm. I now play a Yamaha Xeno cornet, and the trigger placement seems worse to me, although still perfectly useable.
Additionally regarding the very stiff spring action of the Bach 184ML, I again prefer this, as it allows the trigger to double as a rest for the left thumb, only be used as a trigger when required. With my Xeno, you can't really rest the left thumb on the trigger lever, because the spring is so soft, that you can easily mistakenly press the trigger.
The 1st trigger I particularly hate is the one on my Bach 37. I always presumed it to be some rubbish aftermarket trigger, but I have since found out that it is the stock Bach one. Why on earth Bach would mount the trigger all the way to the right, with the trigger lever as such an angle that holding the trumpet one handed whilst using mutes is very uncomfortable, as the trigger lever is mounted in such a position, that the gap between the trigger lever, 1st valve and leadpipe is insufficient even for my really tiny thumb, and you therefore cannot get your right thumb either round the valve block or under the leadpipe when you want to play one handed when for example using mutes. I've gotten round this by having a colleague kindly modifying the trigger rod with an extra screw portion, so that the trigger lever sits laying back further. It is less comfortable to use, but at least there is a gap that the right thumb can go through. Maybe Bach presume that you will use the right thumb on the trigger. Fair enough when you are using two hands, but I still can't see where you are supposed to put your right thumb when playing one handed, as against a moveable trigger doesn't seem very secure. I suppose there is always the option of being the 1st and 2nd valves. Anyway, that is my rant on the subject.
I've spent so long ranting lol, that I can't remember whether we are discussing just the 1st slide or 1st and 3rd slides lol. I haven't yet found a third trigger lever that I can even reach, so my preference is for a ring on the 3rd slide, and probably a trigger on the 1st, although I'm not really bothered, regularly using a 1st trigger on my Xeno cornet and 1st saddle on my Xeno trumpet.
I have never tried a trumpet with a 1st slide ring.
All the best
Lou
The vintage horns, I'll live with as is (at least for now) but the I used to play on a Bach 184 with a saddle and will have mine modified likewise at some point. |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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