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Cryogenic Freezing Scam?


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PatchesTheCat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Guys and Gals,
Not sure how many have heard about this yet, but a friend sent me this article. I wish they gave more information about the specifics of the test in regards to controls and scientific equipment used, but it certainly does raise an eyebrow.

I'm sure Wayne Tanabe won't like it, but he also might not care.

Luckily for all of us Schilke owners, the horns come out absolutely perfect so we don't need after market treatments for them

http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/trum11112003.htm

Peace.
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to see the original study. Has anyone searched for it at the Tufts site?

Dave
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PatchesTheCat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/mie/research/cryo/cryo98/backgrnd.htm

http://www.tufts.edu/as/tampl/summer99/projects.html

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/mie/research/cryo/cryo99/Purpose_Goals.htm

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/mie/research/cryo/cryo99/Main_Page.htm

This is all I could dig up...maybe someone will email one of the researchers and let us know.
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PatchesTheCat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoke too soon I think

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/mie/Pubs/cryo_paper_asa.pdf
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loudog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Lynch (not the asymmetric guy) and some TPIN members participated in a study...several well known players including Nick Drozdoff and John Hagstrom were play testers. Here were the results.

http://www.whc.net/rjones/jasonb/comments.html

Louie
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a pretty big flaw in the methodology of the Lynch study. It is pretty much a given in any scientific study that comparisons should be made on a "double blind" basis; that is, neither the subject nor the experimenters should know whether they have a horn that has been cryo-treated. That is not the case, since the horns were all played on by the players, then cryo-treated and tried again. Based on that, on the face of it, the Tuft's study instantly has more credibility.

As a Canadian, I frequently cryo-treat my horns in the trunk of my car and have yet to notice any improvement...
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TimBrown
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to go with Tufts. If I read the article right, Selmer funded the research to see if it was a valid option. Certainly, Selmer could make lots of money on something like that. The fact that the research reports that brass cryogenics doesn't produce valid results indicates something of integrity both of the research report and Selmer.

I think that alot of it is psychological, as far as "detecting a difference" is concerned.

For what it's worth,

Tim
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a bunch of scientists, they sure make their site hard to navigate. Anybody find the "Methods" page?

I'm curious how they reproduced the sound before and after the cyro treatment. Seems like they couldn't have used human players, otherwise there would surely be variations from one test to the next.

Dave
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evangelic_monk
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's a link for the methods
http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/mie/research/cryo/cryo99/methods.htm

A human tester played all of the trumpets.
They really need to work on the site a bit more, the data and results page is not there =/.
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those screen prints of the sound spectrum look way less complex than some I've seen produced by Thomas Moore. Makes me wonder about the resolution of their equipment. The overtones seem to be filtered in some way. I wish they’d show a picture image.

The player had to do the two tests days apart, or at least hours, to allow time for the cyro treatment. I wonder how they made the playing repeatable. I wish that I could see the whole paper, but so far, I'm not particularly impressed with their methods.

Moore's experiments seem to be much more rigorous. I wish he'd been hired for this study. Oh well...

As a consultant myself, I know that "experts" are often hired to support the opinion of the sponsor of the study. I wonder if that could be the case here.

Dave
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out this link for the most complete description of procedures and results:

http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/mie/Pubs/cryo_paper_asa.pdf

Some of the trumpets were cryo-treated, some were not. All were tested at the same time.

Giving it some more thought, I can think of a few things that could have been done better:

1.) Testing of trumpets to ensure that they were similar in characteristics. With only 5 treated and 5 non-treated a real clinker or a wonderhorn in the group could substantially skew results. It could be that this was done, but Selmer didn't want it mentioned because it might be interpreted as an official admission that their horns are inconsistent.

2.) More players, and better ones. It seems that they more or less ignored the results from the weaker players, and I'm not sure what they would have contributed in any case. It is pretty hard to draw broad conclusions based on three players.

3.) Better effort to explain how the numbers and graphs translate into aural perception. It is hard to know how much difference on the graph is necessary before the difference is audible, at least to a lay person -- which includes most trumpeters.

I don't think it makes sense to assume that there is some kind of hidden agenda at work here. Presumably, Selmer could make additional profit on each horn by offering cryo-treatment as an option. I can't imagine that they wouldn't be able to do it on a large scale that would be highly economical. So if there is a benefit to it, it is in their financial best interests to have scientific proof of that. Since none of their competitors offer cryo-treatment as an option, there is nothing to be gained by producing spurious evidence that cryo-treating a horn has no positive effect.
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TossedSalad
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they didn't put the horns together with so much stress, then maybe there wouldn't be a market for this.

TS
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Nonsense, that they needed more players, with all of high quality. Also, I think they should have established a base line for the horns by testing all pre-cyro then comparing the post-cyro results. (Still double blind). As it is, we don't know if the differences are due to cyro or "normal" Bach production variances.

The test seems to validate that some horns are better than others, but I don't see how it isolates the effects of cyro from the effects of manufacturing variances.

It's interesting that they focused on the top-space E as showing the biggest variance from horn to horn. Was player number 2 lipping it in tune and making the horn resonate better, or was it the horn being better in tune. (Since only one player was able to take advantage of the difference, it's a little hard to interpret. Hence, my conclusion that they needed more players with more experience).

Interesting stuff, but I don't see any questions answered yet.

Dave
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Horn of Praise
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my humble "nobody" opinion, I have never believed that "cold" could make a horn play better. In my experience with metals and stress, it has always been "post heat" that allowed a stressed, fabricated assembly to come into "balance", so to speak.

Several times, this past summer, my horns sat in my hot car. This made me "believe" they played better.

Cryo-well!

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[ This Message was edited by: Horn of Praise on 2003-11-12 17:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Horn of Praise on 2003-11-12 17:55 ]
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trumplyr
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a scientist and I don't pretend to enjoy pouring through the data of a scientific experiment or even understanding all the data that's presented. I did read the conclusion completely and found that very interesting.

This has been discussed/rehashed many times in various places. Based on this experiments conclusion and my own experience, I'll stand on what I've said before. Below is my response to this topic that I posted on another forum some time ago. At the risk of repeating myself, let me repeat myself.


"This particular modification/treatment seems to have a lot of advocates. I had this done to a C trumpet a few years ago and the major thing I noticed after it was done was the lightness in my wallet.

Others may have different results."
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's something interesting.

So I'm driving to rehearsal tonight, listening to CBC (that's the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for the unenlightened ), and what should I hear but an interview with none other than Professor Chris Rogers of Tufts University, discussing his research into cryogenically treated trumpets! (As an explanation, I am told that one of the hosts of the program, As it Happens, went to school with Stuart Laughton of the Canadian Brass, so perhaps that explains something. Or not.) He basically explained the experiment and their results. This particular individual is a mechanical engineer, so one thing he mentioned which more or less escaped my cursory look at the research was that part of the study was looking at what physically happens to brass when it is cryo-treated.

Apparently, when steel is treated with cold, it undergoes a phase change (I believe that was the expression he used) and becomes stronger, but more brittle. He suggested that perhaps this is what first got people thinking about the whole issue. In any case, it turns out that there is no comparable effect with brass. Take a hunk of brass, cryo-treat it, and you are left with exactly the same hunk of brass you started with. I suppose one might also want to know what happens to solder when you freeze it, but I can't see why brittle solder would help anything!

This does seem to strengthen their case, even if perhaps their play-testing could have been more extensive. If there is no physical change, there is no physical change, end of story. One other interesting point he made was that all of the play-testers believed that they could distinguish between treated and untreated horns. Apparently they were right about 50% of the time, which also suggests that there was in fact no consistent or discernable effect.

[ This Message was edited by: Nonsense Eliminator on 2003-11-12 23:26 ]
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jophst
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a Civil Engineer myself and I strongly agree with the mechanical engineer. Brass is a completely different compund than Steel and has different physical properties and thus reactions with the elements. The freezing process simply will not change the brass.
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trumpetmike
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are trumpet players - we like gadgets!

Heavy top mouthpieces - yes please.
Heavy Valve Caps - Oh, we need them.
If you super cool your instrument it will improve it - Ok, throw it in the freezer.

OK, maybe I'm just a bit cynical but it does seem as if there are a lot of people out there who are making money out of trumpet players who want the latest addition to their instrument.
I am not any sort of physicist, nor an engineer, I am merely a trumpeter, with a large vat of cynicism!
Then again, I haven't yet tried one of these frozen trumpets - If I do I will post the results - anyone got one I can borrow???
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Horn of Praise
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...if you do freeze your horn...just remember what happendd to the kid in "A Christmas Story" who put his tongue on the flagpole. Let it warm up first. LOL, LOL, LOL...

Be well.

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PAUL NELSON
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[ This Message was edited by: Horn of Praise on 2003-11-13 17:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Horn of Praise on 2003-11-13 17:38 ]
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jhaysom
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a civil engineer too. While I'm skeptical about the benefits of the cryogenic freezing of horns, I think we have to admit that such drastic freezing could indeed change the horn. Even if the metal doesn't undergo a phase change, it will be stressed and the stresses within the horn structure are likely to be redistributed.

As it cools, the brass wants to contract but is restrained from doing so by other parts of the structure. So, for example, some parts will go into tension or increased tension from what was already there. Perhaps some parts will be stressed beyond the yield point of the metal and they will, in effect, be stretched so that when they warm up again there will be less tension than there was originally. Also the tension in some parts may cause other parts to go into compression or increased compression, perhaps to the point where they buckle. When these parts warm up, there will be less compression than there was originally.

So any stresses in the horn from its original fabrication could be significantly changed by the freezing process.

Will this have a beneficial result? I don't know but I wouldn't assume that this would necessarily be the case.

In any case, I'm not planning to freeze my horns. I won't even leave them out in the car in a Canadian winter.
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