Smaller 3C

[Martinharris]

Hi,
I'm looking for a Bach 3C or some kind of 3C ish mouthpiece that is smaller than your average Bach 3C. Most 3C's I'be tried have an inside diameter that is too wide for me, I like the diameter of a slightly narrower piece such as the warburton 4 rim .660)
Can any of you lovely people suggest a mouthpiece that is basically a 3C but with a diameter more like a warburton 4 please?
I haven't tried stolzel, gewa, JK3C, Patrick 3C, mount Vernon 3C...
If anyone has something that matches this that they're selling?
Thanks

[jengstrom]

The rim shapes might not be exactly the same, but I have played the Schilke Symphonic Series 3M and 3M* mouthpieces and they felt a bit smaller than my 3C's.

Also, the Monette size 6 mouthpieces feel a bit smaller to me too. If you don't want to spring for a B6S1, the silver series 6 is a nice piece, almost identical to the B6S1, for less money.

I haven't played the others you mention.

John
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[shofarguy]

I have a Kanstul B3D, which corresponds to the modern Bach 3D. I also have several Flip Oakes #5 rim mouthpieces that are just a hair less diameter than that. These are made by Curry and use his Mt. Vernon era Bach mouthpiece for the pattern of the rim. They also have about the same bite, which is less than a modern Bach 3C. If you go that way, you can look to Flip's C-O series, which uses a 7C-like cup. I play a 5C-O and like it very much.
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[Kslice]

I'm not getting this. What's wrong with the Warburton 4MC?
An even better choice is P. Rodriguez model, or as I call it, the 4MC
classic. Difference being a little more cup volume, and a little more bite to the rim, same diameter.
You may also like the 4M, feels smaller.
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[oxleyk]

Pickett 4C

[Louise Finch]

[Martinharris]

I can't play on the warburton 4 rim, it's so thick, flat and sharp... horrible rim.
For the guy who suggested a kanstul 3D... I'm not looking for a shallower cup than a Bach 3C, just a little less diameter!
I've tried the Yamaha 14b4 but it did feel shallower than a Bach 3C.
The Pickett 4 rim is too sharp and I think the cup is deeper than the Bach.

[delano]

The Warburton Arturocup, some MtV 3C copy, just a wider rim than the regular Warburtons, a tiny bit smaller diameter than a (my) Bach 3C and my (temporary) solution out of the mouthpiecesafari.
I play it on everything with five different backbores.

[Martinharris]

Anyone tried the Greg black 3C or 5C or 5CS?

[TrentAustin]

Our ACB 3CS would be a nice alternative for you!

from our webstore:

3CS: Similar to the 3C except it's slightly smaller and also has a much more efficient entrance into the throat. It helps the articulation and adds a lively "zip" to the sound. It is especially good on vintage trumpets or overly dark horns to make them "speak".


http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/products/Austin-Custom-Brass-Standard-Series-Mouthpieces.html

FWIW,

T

[Locutus2k]

It seems to me that the Horn Trader / Steve Dillard 3C mouthpiece is exactly what yu're looking for. I suggest the 3 (no letter) for legit and the 3CS-28 for lead/commercial. They are really special.
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[Martinharris]

The horn trader piece and the curry no dot 3 are both larger or as large as a standard Bach 3C so no... they are not what's I'm describing.
Hi Trent, the 3CS sounds like it's no narrower than a Bach 3C and I don't want a brighter throat entrance, I'm looking for a legit mouthpiece.

[Craig Swartz]

If you're going to all this trouble, why don't you just book an appointment with your most local GR rep and have a fitting. I, personally, do not play them but everyone I know who has done this is more than satisfied with the results. Not snake oil. Good luck.

[ProAm]

I find the Reeves 42C to be my favorite, slightly-smaller-than-Bach-3C mouthpiece. They are not cheap, though, even used.

You might not agree with my opinion as I kind of like the Warburton 4M and wide, flatter, cushiony rims in general.

You said that you tried the Yamaha 14b4 and it was shallower than the Bach 3C. Of course it is! If it had been deeper would it have been OK for you? If so, try a Yamaha 14 or 14C4 or even a 14d4D. A Yamaha piece will be the least expensive option you can find and they are generally plentiful on the used market.

[shofarguy]

[Locutus2k]

[Louise Finch]

Hi again Martinharris

There are manufacturers which make scaled versions of the 3C cup, but to maintain the 3C cup shape they end up proportionately shallower. If you keep the cup depth but reduce the cup diameter you lose the proportions of the 3C cup.

i.e.

Jazz Cup #3

Ok, this one is pretty much a bach 3C. The 3c is the only mouthpiece that Bach makes with that cup shape that so many jazz players use. It is fairly shallow, with some nice room in the top of the cup. Probably the most versatile cup shape out there. Trouble is Bach only makes it in one diameter, .655.
The way this shape works, it can only really be a pretty small range of diameters. If you keep it proportional, when you get to .665 it is exactly the same as a Bach 1 1/2 C. If you go smaller than about .645, it becomes too shallow. (at ‘645 it is almost exactly the same as a Monette B4L but you have to widen it a little at the top). If you don’t keep it proportional, you lose the vibe of the cup shape. I say it works at .645, (pretty much a lead piece at that size though) 650, .655. and .660.

Taken from:

http://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/Jazz_Cups.html

I believe that it would be easier to help, if we knew exactly what you were looking for.

You say what you don't want, i.e. that the Yamaha 14B4 feels shallower than the Bach 3C but that you think the Pickett 4 is deeper. Does that mean therefore that you are looking for something with virtually the same cup depth as a 3C?

What about cup shape, do you want the cup shape of the 3C, or just the cup depth?

You mention that you don't like the sharpness of either the Pickett 4 or Warburton 4 rims. Do you therefore like a less sharp rim or are you looking for a Bach 3C rim in particular?

To get to the point, and I apologise, I'm feeling rather grumpy today, this:

I understand that you want a slightly smaller than average cup diameter for a Bach 3C, but do you want a Bach 3C style rim in particular?

You appear to want a 3C cup depth, do you also want a 3C cup shape?

If you just want a small variant 3C, it may be worth buying a few 3Cs off Ebay/secondhand from other sources, of various vintages (for example my experience with cornet Bach 3Cs, is that the ones in a font with a flat top to the 3 have smaller cup diameters).

My experience mainly with cornet 3Cs, is that the large letter ones have larger cup diameters as do the ones with the return to small lettering (but etched instead of stamped) before Bach is rumoured to have retooled its mouthpiece production after the Bach strike to more reflect the size of the cherries put aside by Vincent Bach himself.

i.e. The opposite of this:

The Bach published measurements, in millimeters above, are taken from the Bach Mouthpiece Handbook, issued annually with a catalog of Bach/Selmer accessories. It is universally acknowledged that those measurements are all wrong. In the olden days, as the machine tools wore out, the mouthpieces would get bigger, and then revert to the smaller sizes when new tooling was installed. It apparently reached the point where the more common sizes were the worn out ones, rather than the specified ones, and the tooling for the mouthpiece was actually changed to reflect the more common larger cuttings, rendering the original specifications useless.

Taken from:

http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Bach-Schilke%20mpc%20chart.html

Since you are looking for a small variant, I'd check out mouthpieces made just after the Bach strike (2009/2010? maybe up to the present day, I have no idea about current Bach mouthpiece production), those with a flat top to the 3, and several examples of older pre CNC ones which vary more, and you may find a small variant.

I hope that this helps.

Lou
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Bach Strad 180ML/37
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Kanstul F Besson C
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Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Martinharris]

Hey Lou,
Thanks for the help! I do like the Bach 3C contour, depth and shape and by going just a few thousandths narrower, I think I could basically keep the same shape while not going shallower.

[cheiden]

Look for an older Bach 3C. The modern ones have rims almost as big as their 1.5C. There was a period of time prior to 1996 when they were noticeably smaller.
http://www.bachloyalist.com/mouthpiece/mouthpieces_variations.htm

Yamaha 14B4 feels and plays very much like a small vintage Bach 3C. The depth of the 14B4 is not really any shallower than a typical Bach 3C which is one of Bach's shallowest C-cups. The 14C4 rim should feel the same but the cup will be somewhat deeper than Bach 3C.

I also concur that the Schilke Symphony M3 feels very much like a small vintage Bach 3C. But these symphonic pieces will not play anything like a typical Bach 3C due to their backbore.
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[terry horace]

The Stork Vacchiano 3C is on the smallish side of the 3C range. Also, if you are looking for a 3Cish mouthpiece that measures .660, why not try the GR 66 series. You can try and return from Thompson Music if necessary.