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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:29 am Post subject: When a type IV (upstream) is working perfectly...... |
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The type IV is one of the very oddest types in brass playing. When everything is "lined up" so to speak they can do the seemingly impossible. And when things are "off" they can sound like one of the worst players you've ever heard (bad pitch, rattles, no control, zero tonguing) to name a few.
This young man from England Louis Dowdesworth is one of the greatest examples of a perfect type IV since Bud Brisbois.
Effortless range, octave shakes and the steel like type IV sound.
Political correctness does not exist in the trumpet world. All types ARE NOT created equal.
Just take a short list of all the great high note players (exceptions do happen now and then, Maynard for one)
Bud Brisbois
Cat Anderson
Derek Watkins
FADDIS
Buddy Childers
Scott Engelbright
That great lead player who just retired from the Army band (forgot his name, is a IV)
Charlie Shavers
Al Killian
Leo "The Whistler"
Pete Candoli (in his youth Woody Herman days)
My Paisan Andrea Tofinelli
Nick Russo (could play loud double B's into his late 80's!)
^^^^
Check it out......Three names in a row that end in a vowel. What about LABARBERA???
Sorry fells, I'm stuck in IIIB land. Great sound, but have always had to practice hard to keep the doubles going strong
All the best to you guys and remember all you poor downstreamers.....STOP BLASTING OUT THOSE MIDDLE AND LOW NOTES. At least give yourself a fighting chance.
Love you guys,
Chris LabarberA
Last edited by Mr.Hollywood on Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: When a type IV (upstream) is working perfectly...... |
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Mr.Hollywood wrote: |
All the best to you guys and remember all you poor downstreamers.....STOP BLASTING OUT THOSE MIDDLE AND LOW NOTES. At least give yourself a fighting chance.
Love you guys,
Chris LabarberA |
can you please elaborate on this comment for the uninitiated? (struggling downstreamer here) |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: |
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BrassM,
Basically overblowing the middle and low registers spreads the apature making the high register much harder.
Take a few days and look through this Reinhardt forum, there is a wealth of info here not just from me, but many others who have studied with Reinhardt.
Good luck with your playing,
Chris |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I always love when Mr.Hollywood posts!
Great stuff my man.
Hey, have you done any experimenting with Lynn's Xpiece? Right now I'm going back and forth as he suggests.. 3-5 min on the X, 3-5 min on my Candoli.. I did longer sessions before with just the X but it was giving me trouble going back to my piece.. I do definitely feel more air take over when I ascend and more relaxed feel to the chops.. I'm wondering if the unfurling promotes more forward pressure from the chops.
Hope your doing great and a lot of playing..Things are cool here..busy with a lot of jazz stuff, so that's always good:-) Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I love when Chris posts, too.
If we can keep this a Reinhardt-oriented thread, that would keep this in the spirit of the "mission" of this forum, that is, to find out about the teaching of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.
I know L.N. was a Reinhardt student, so we're not totally on thin ice here, yet.
Thanks! _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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patdublc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1050 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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That was just such an awesome post. _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:32 am Post subject: |
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BeboppinFool wrote: | I love when Chris posts, too.
If we can keep this a Reinhardt-oriented thread, that would keep this in the spirit of the "mission" of this forum, that is, to find out about the teaching of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.
I know L.N. was a Reinhardt student, so we're not totally on thin ice here, yet.
Thanks! |
I have seen his video and, aside from mentioning upstream/downstream and pivoting incidentally it doesn't sound as if he took anything from his Reinhardt studies? |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Lynn and I have been friends since 1980.
Reinhardt said it would be a good idea to give Lynn a call because we were (at that time) exactly the same types IIIB with a type I (one) tongue.
Jerry is right about Lynn, he really doesn't use Doc's stuff at all. He really feels that he has discovered MF's "secret" to playing high.
I think Lynn is a very bright guy and he is definitely on to something. But I have just one comment on his approach.......look at his face very closely when hes talking. He has almost no outer red tissue on his upper or lower lips. So when he says that he is unfurling could it be he is just making normal red lips like most people have. Now I know the very first response will be MF had very thick red lips".
Just a little something to think about. I also believe this is why he can play such small mps.
For the record though....I asked Walt Johnson on a Sinatra Jr. gig who had the loudest DHC he ever heard and without missing a beat he said "Lynn Nicholson". Roger also told me tthe same thing. Like a jet taking off..........
CLB |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | He has almost no outer red tissue on his upper or lower lips. So when he says that he is unfurling could it be he is just making normal red lips like most people have. Now I know the very first response will be MF had very thick red lips".
Just a little something to think about. I also believe this is why he can play such small mps.
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This is a great point. I also have quite thin lips and it was only when I transitioned down to smaller diameters that the altissimo range opened up for me as well as real 'lead' type power. Still though, I can play more curled in with my thin lips and it's a different feel. I'm thinking about how Ghitalla taught some students to play...that 'M' setting. My point is that there is definitely a different feel in the chops when I'm playing unfurled. This is all felt inside the mouthpiece, everything outside the mouthpiece pretty much feels the same. It's just that I can tell my lips feel a little more 'unrolled' inside the mouthpiece and they are even more relaxed. But I don't feel this at all effects anything about my IIIB-edness. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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" my IIIB-edness"
That's funny Lex.......
the word "edness" does not appear in Reinhardts Encyclopedia. You better be careful that the iron fist of Rich Willey doesn't come down on you. (just kidding Rich) You are a great monitor and have kept the pedal pushers out of here for years. I know its a thankless job.
Chris LaBarbera |
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Martinharris Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Chris,
Big fan here! The problem I've had with your "buzz and play quietly" is that for me, my lips just get tighter and tighter and my upper register starts to get a lot thinner and the sound cuts out very easily.
So Chris, how do balance that small aperture stuff and keep the vibrations from cutting off?
(IIIB here) |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hahaha - I knew you'd like that one dude;-) yeah man I cut rich some slack w his hardcore moderation because of his jazz playing. And he apparently uses some crazy big reeves. Better suited for sipping grappa out of IMO. Have you checked out Jim new's new site and pieces? Pretty bad ass. With a comparator and everything. He's got some custom tops of some really well known lead cats. Check out his awesome new I'm taking the Chase top for a spin on this big band gig right now. Thinking of getting the Trigg top - that sucker is shallow! Apparently, the original is an Ingram rim 'Cink with a shallower cup than a Shew 1 and that great Candoli backbore. Jim probably tweaked it even more. Best. Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: Hey |
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I'm one a dem too btw
And I can tell u I fit the bill...
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well I know u r with the great jazz playing - but can you drink grappa out of ur 3C? _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:33 pm Post subject: Send |
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Send me your email please Lex. |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ljazztrm@gmail.com Just on a gig and killing time between soundcheck, etc. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Louis has an electrifying sound!
He sounds quite similar to me to Eric Miyashiro, and Eric is also a mystical phenomenon.
If you like Louis' playing, you can also help his group out a bit and get charts and recordings for a lot of his youtube stuff from Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/chickentiko
Worthwhile cause IMO. |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:57 am Post subject: |
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No sarcasm intended here.
I said he has great high notes, I never said that I would really care to listen beyond a few minutes of youtube.
Why listen to high note players when I haven't heard every Fat's, Clifford or Freddie recording there is out there.
I could never understand why people would want to listen to the 1000th player with good high notes cover "Rocky". I heard MF do it live so many times in the 1970's. Whats the point.
I'm WAAAAYYY past that. Maybe if I was 16 again.....
CLB |
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Type3B Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2016 Posts: 108 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi All -- Chris, great stuff, thanks! I'm a IIIB, and my type-IV envy mostly has to do with endurance. I recall Doc telling me that when a IIIB got tired out, he or she was done, period. A IV, on the other hand, seemed to be able to go on forever.
Chris, something you said about Lynn's lips got me wondering: Lynn apparently shows no outer red tissue. I don't recall Doc talking to me about this issue, but my own observations tell me that I play with a "Maggio" type embouchure--lots of red, rolled outward. Did Doc ever talk about this issue? If so, what did he say about it?
Thanks! |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Mr.Hollywood wrote: | No sarcasm intended here.
I said he has great high notes, I never said that I would really care to listen beyond a few minutes of youtube.
Why listen to high note players when I haven't heard every Fat's, Clifford or Freddie recording there is out there.
I could never understand why people would want to listen to the 1000th player with good high notes cover "Rocky". I heard MF do it live so many times in the 1970's. Whats the point.
I'm WAAAAYYY past that. Maybe if I was 16 again.....
CLB |
Because it's totally not an issue to listen to and enjoy both?
In fairness, it seems like he plays a lot of high notes because that's what gets him gigs, but can you blame him? I wouldn't jump to pigeon-holeing him quite as much as you are.
There's a recording on youtube if you go through enough pages of the search of him playing the Harry James Concerto. Sure, doesn't touch your own recording Chris, but he was what, 16 or 17 or something when it was recorded I think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnjhzttS1j0 |
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