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Bach Stradivarius GOOD Serial Numbers


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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with "good serial numbers" as a concept is that what constitutes a "bad Bach", or "a Bach" is so frequently mis-understood. Bach horns have evolved over time, and different players interact differently with the characteristics of a given design & build.

It's like a relationship, you have to find a partner you fit with. Given the huge variety of options Bach offers, "a Bach" is not a quantifiable entity today (what bell, what LP, what bore, what alloy, what body weight, what bell weight, reversed? and so on).

But even once one gets past that, given the abundance of vintage horns, there is the issue of when a Bach was built. Bach designs were all over the map, as well as alloy and weight, for the first 10+ years in New York. In the 30s, the Strad design stabilized in terms of valves, metal and wrap, still varied a bit in the lighter gauges of metal. Then post war, there is a flurry of horns built with whatever was available before the 30s wrap re-appears, but with heavier stock in both body and bell as the norm (body .025, bell .020). In 1951, the wrap changes, getting taller and adding that second brace. All of this, we call "a New York Bach", when they are very different horns. Then, that design continues at Mt. Vernon until the mid-50s change that caused the standard pull to be nearly an inch to play in tune (you can measure how much shorter the lead pipe and tuning slide sleeve are). That continues until the sale and Bach designing the 180, the first 180, for Selmer in 1962. For 2 years, 180s are built at Mt. Vernon, then in 1965, production of the 180 shifts to Elkhart. So we have three very different designs, all thought of as "Mt. Vernon". (Somewhere in this window 1962-1965, .025 becomes standard bell stock and .020 becomes lightweight.) The "Early Elkhart" design then continues until 72/73, when the 1-piece casing change is made. Over the following decades, other changes, such as the move to hydroforming bells, continue to result in variation in design characteristics vs the other periods. These are all quality horns, but the characteristics will be a better fit for one person vs another.

So when someone borrows a Bach horn, say a 1957 "Mt. Vernon 43", and discovers they really like it, then jumps at the chance to buy a 1963 "Mt. Vernon 43", they wind up posting about terrible Bach consistency because their "Mt. Vernon 43" doesn't balance in the hand, or respond (with its 25% heavier bell), or flex around the fairly firm centering (without the extended gap at the slide) like the "Mt. Vernon 43" they tried out first. If they had compared the 1963 "Mt. Vernon 43" to a 1971 "Elkhart 43", they would have commented how amazingly consistent the two were for being "different horns" (because they are both 180s built exactly the same).

Yes, it is true that by 2007, the United Auto Workers were building instruments rather than musicians at the Elkhart plant, and there seems solid documentation of real quality problems in the decade+ prior, but after 2009, there are musicians running the show again. Take a tour, the first thing you will notice if you have an industrial background is the huge number of parts/horns tagged for rework or scrap. Bach has a quality focus once again that is evident. Additionally, for those tasks where consistent precision is a desirable trait, the new owners are investing in automation (while keeping those tasks that require an artisan's touch still hand work - which is also critical because there is hardly anywhere left to learn the craft, so skilled labor needs to be exploited where essential, not on tasks a machine can do).

The vast majority of the criticism of Bach for "bad" horns results not from true quality issues (other than that dark time around the Millennium, many horns from which do still pop up on EBay), but from the artificial groupings people view Bach's by that completely ignore when the designs changed, and how they changed.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no two anythings that are exactly the same. A horn made in 1957 is 61 years old. What has happened to a piece of metal, one that dents, one that wears, how it was or wasn't maintained, how long it sat in a case with no lubrication and had to have the valves buffed (or not), the exposure to various and sundry different things such as dents, replating, red rot, wear, mass decline at touch points from erosion if the metal, valve oil used, slide grease used....I can go on forever. No two horns have the same path, and they may both be marked the same, have the original same gauge of brass, be hammered by the same worker on the same mandrel, each one has a variable factor of huge proportion.

Consider the concept of brass for just a second. Red or rose brass has a specifically higher percentage of copper than regular brass. And that makes the tone darker for a bell made with that rose brass. (says conventional wisdom) But, the sheet brass comes already formed and in a specific alloy to the makers. What if, as an example, the guy making the rose brass at the brass factory accidentally adds a tiny bit too much nickel to the rose brass? What if they add too little? Does it change the brass? Of course it does. Is it enough to affect the tone? Again, the variables. And, what if the process of annealing the brass when creating the sheets to use for bell making is not quite finished the same every time? What happens if the brass in a trumpet has been tempered two different ways in the creation process? Exact measurements are essential, and even then, variable can creep into the process.

There was a period (according to some) where workmanship was less well done than in the past, but that has been a long time ago, and I played many horns from that era that were superb. So aside from horns with poor quality control, the variable will always be there. Just as variable as the person playing the instrument. I have had students and colleagues ask me to go along on horn purchase excusions. And sometimes they play and love horns I would never buy for myself, and frankly I dislike. And they sound fabulous on them...variables are not limited to the instrument.

Just some thoughts,

AL
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve played lots of them. The ones I liked best were numbers below 100k (especially some in the +/- 35k range) and numbers above 500k. The current ones are quite nice.

That’s purely subjective though.
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boog
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Strad I currently have is less than 3 years old. It is the best playing (to me) that I have ever sampled, and I have played, albeit briefly in most cases, on many Strads over my career, some were Mt. Vernons, for whatever that is worth.

The WORST Strad I have ever played, I still own. A piccolo! But I suppose that is just me.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:

The WORST Strad I have ever played, I still own. A piccolo! But I suppose that is just me.


I bought the new Strad piccolo model 183 when it came out in 1983. Great valves, but I found the longer I owned it, that it played one dynamic level, and was rather hard to control. I thought when I bought it that it was me, and I worked and worked. I sent the horn to Clifford Blackburn, he made pipes for it. Could never get it up to pitch. Accidentally smashed the bell, had to have a new bell installed. Figured to get it tweeked then, and the tech tried, he really did. Horn never played anything but Fortissimo, and flat. Traded it away, and was glad to finally be rid of it some 15 years later. Bought a Kanstul made Burbank Piccolo (now the 920), never looked back.

It indeed was the one Strad I owned that I would never buy again.

AL
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boog
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur, Al..

Fortunately I have little need for a piccolo in the area I live in. Over the last 3 or so decades, I have only had 2 "real" opportunities to use a piccolo. One was a church Christmas gig that had about 4 measures that called for a picc, and the other one was when my jazz band played "McArthur Park", and the director wanted a piccolo sound in one section.

But the VERY WORST piccolo I have ever owned is a 4 valve Chinese "Monique". That sucker is going to become a lamp one of these days!

Regards, Dave
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:
The WORST Strad I have ever played, I still own. A piccolo! But I suppose that is just me.

Nope, not just you.
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 433xxx. (Can anyone tell me about which year this is from?). I have tried just three other Bach Strads—and I like all three better than my own. They seem clearer. Other horns I’ve tried, even student horns, seem to produce sound easier. Is this a result of my horn being “stuffy?” Or does it just have more resistance? Is it dependent on the player whether they prefer free-blowing or resistance?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
I have a 433xxx. (Can anyone tell me about which year this is from?).

Yup. Try BachLoyalist for serial number lists.
CJceltics33 wrote:
I have tried just three other Bach Strads—and I like all three better than my own. They seem clearer. Other horns I’ve tried, even student horns, seem to produce sound easier.
Is this a result of my horn being “stuffy?”

Possibly. Although people will reply with "facts" it really is impossible to know unless we can play the horn.
CJceltics33 wrote:
Or does it just have more resistance?

Possibly. Although people will reply with "facts" it really is impossible to know unless we can play the horn.
CJceltics33 wrote:
Is it dependent on the player whether they prefer free-blowing or resistance?

Absolutely. Along with many other things, like gap, mouthpiece selection, mouthpiece backbore, flaws in the bore...

While asking for advice on a internet website is worth every penny you pay for it, it is really impossible to diagnose what you like and what *might* be wrong with your instrument. You really would do better to ask a teacher, local pro, or repairman to evaluate your horn in person.

There are places like Osmun's that will diagnose your instrument, but you might not like the results when you get it back. Solely because of your personal preferences. In theory we should all like a trumpet that is designed perfectly and built with the same perfection, but the reality is that we don't all appreciate the same characteristics.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
boog wrote:

The WORST Strad I have ever played, I still own. A piccolo! But I suppose that is just me.


I bought the new Strad piccolo model 183 when it came out in 1983. Great valves, but I found the longer I owned it, that it played one dynamic level, and was rather hard to control. I thought when I bought it that it was me, and I worked and worked. I sent the horn to Clifford Blackburn, he made pipes for it. Could never get it up to pitch. Accidentally smashed the bell, had to have a new bell installed. Figured to get it tweeked then, and the tech tried, he really did. Horn never played anything but Fortissimo, and flat. Traded it away, and was glad to finally be rid of it some 15 years later. Bought a Kanstul made Burbank Piccolo (now the 920), never looked back.

It indeed was the one Strad I owned that I would never buy again.

AL

Curiously, I have trouble getting my particular 920 to respond well at very low volumes. My teacher agrees. With my horn it's a minor gripe, nothing like your Strad. And I'm not much of a picc player but I've played many others that are noticeably easier to make speak even when played quietly.

The few Bach piccs I've played, some years back, I struggled with.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:


Curiously, I have trouble getting my particular 920 to respond well at very low volumes. My teacher agrees. With my horn it's a minor gripe, nothing like your Strad. And I'm not much of a picc player but I've played many others that are noticeably easier to make speak even when played quietly.

The few Bach piccs I've played, some years back, I struggled with.


Here are a couple things that helped mine.

1. Always use a cornet mouthpiece. Mine never likes a full length trumpet mouthpiece. If I did use a trumpet piece, I used a CG 3 that Kanstul made for me in their piccolo length, but with a trumpet shank. I also used Warburton backbores that were designed for Blackburn leadpipes, and they are cornet length as well. I am sure others make them as well. You might see if you can find or obtain a Kanstul Piccolo Trumpet mouthpiece. Some have found them helpful in taming this tiny beast!

2. Space all four bottom caps with o-rings. I messed with mine until I got the right balance, tightening and loosening as I went. Found the right combination, and the trumpet both soared and sang, as it still does.

3. Be sure not to overblow the trumpet. With it's .460 bore, a lot of folks want to play it like their Bb trumpet, which is not going to work. The feel can be similar for the player, but this is a 2 1/4 foot long instrument (in Bb), so will never play like a Bb (4 1/2 feet long).

4. You might, if you are not happy with it still, try either a Blackburn or Osmun pipe on the piccolo. A lot of folks have tried them on the Kanstul piccolos and found they make a huge, positive difference. Your mileage may vary.

Hope these help you as much as they have me!

AL
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
cheiden wrote:


Curiously, I have trouble getting my particular 920 to respond well at very low volumes. My teacher agrees. With my horn it's a minor gripe, nothing like your Strad. And I'm not much of a picc player but I've played many others that are noticeably easier to make speak even when played quietly.

The few Bach piccs I've played, some years back, I struggled with.


Here are a couple things that helped mine.

1. Always use a cornet mouthpiece. Mine never likes a full length trumpet mouthpiece. If I did use a trumpet piece, I used a CG 3 that Kanstul made for me in their piccolo length, but with a trumpet shank. I also used Warburton backbores that were designed for Blackburn leadpipes, and they are cornet length as well. I am sure others make them as well. You might see if you can find or obtain a Kanstul Piccolo Trumpet mouthpiece. Some have found them helpful in taming this tiny beast!

2. Space all four bottom caps with o-rings. I messed with mine until I got the right balance, tightening and loosening as I went. Found the right combination, and the trumpet both soared and sang, as it still does.

3. Be sure not to overblow the trumpet. With it's .460 bore, a lot of folks want to play it like their Bb trumpet, which is not going to work. The feel can be similar for the player, but this is a 2 1/4 foot long instrument (in Bb), so will never play like a Bb (4 1/2 feet long).

4. You might, if you are not happy with it still, try either a Blackburn or Osmun pipe on the piccolo. A lot of folks have tried them on the Kanstul piccolos and found they make a huge, positive difference. Your mileage may vary.

Hope these help you as much as they have me!

AL

For me the horn responds best with a cornet piece. So far I'm having the best luck with a Yamaha 11B4. I couldn't make the Kanstul piece, or most dedicated picc pieces work. I trust it's because I have too much lip intrusion and bottom out.

I'm intrigued about the bottom caps. Any particular o-ring?

Took me a while to stop trying to muscle the little horn. I still have work to do.

When I got it I took it to Kanstul factory and got a full set of pipes, I asked about the Blackburn pipes but someone there told me the only difference was the little fish stamped on the side.

Thx for the tips!
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ajithajune1987
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Finding the Serial Number Reply with quote

Where can I find the serial number?
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: Finding the Serial Number Reply with quote

ajithajune1987 wrote:
Where can I find the serial number?


On Strads, it should be on the second valve. Don’t look too hard, you’ll find it!
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:


I'm intrigued about the bottom caps. Any particular o-ring?

Took me a while to stop trying to muscle the little horn. I still have work to do.

When I got it I took it to Kanstul factory and got a full set of pipes, I asked about the Blackburn pipes but someone there told me the only difference was the little fish stamped on the side.

Thx for the tips!


I took my piccolo trumpet to the hardware store and found ones that fit snuggly around the threaded area on the bottom cap, then thread the cap on the bottom. I adjust the tension on the bottom caps to see how I can positively affect the blow and response of the trumpet. Usually, the longer the slide, the less I tighten the cap.

Blackburn pipes did make a difference on my piccolo, especially on the Bb side. The Kanstul pipe I have works best on the A side, cornet shank in either a 3C/117 or a Monette AP4S. The Bb side works best with a 7D and the Blackburn leadpipe, or a 7D cornet with the Kanstul leadpipe.

Please ask if I can help more, I am happy to do so.

AL
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ajithajune1987
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Finding the Serial Number Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
ajithajune1987 wrote:
Where can I find the serial number?


On Strads, it should be on the second valve. Don’t look too hard, you’ll find it!


Thank yo use much for your kindness in getting back to me.
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ajithajune1987
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jophst wrote:
Hello all. I thought I would start an interesting thread. If you own a great playing strad, fell free to share the first couple digits of the serial # so we may get an idea of the era of when the horn was produced. This may give a more definitive idea of when Bach horns were more consistent. Likewise, you may give one that was a terrible strad. I'm not sure if it is legal or not to give the whole serial number, so please refrain from that. After a lot of posts I will do my best to compile the results. This isn't limited to Bb trumpets .. C's, D's are welcome and also cornets.

Great Strads I own:

Bb - 284xxx
Bb - 47xxx
Bb - 86xxx
C - 404xxx

Great Strads I used to own:

Bb - 303xxx
Cornet - 300xxx

Horrible Strad (Worst)
Bb - 455xxx

I have owned somewhere between 40-50 Strads and these were the stand outs at the upper and lower end.

I hope this proves to be a productive thread.



My apologies for asking a stupid question ---- Where is a good place to sell my used Bach Trumpet? I am having a hard time finding any place to sell and get a good price. Thank you for your kind advice.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are a couple of general ways to think of Bach production. 1-12,600. Bach seemed to be searching for standard models and came up with a few but these should all be considered as individual custom instruments. 12,600-16,000 there was more standardization and developing of standard weights, thicknesses and design features. 16,000-20,000 Major redesign of the entire instrument and settling in on standard set ups. 20,000-26,700. Selmer bought the company and settled in on standard models returned to the longer, original length leadpipe. .020 (lightweight by today’s standard) was the standard bell thickness. 26,7xx-29,999 don’t exist. Somewhere around 100,000 the standard bell thickness was increased to .023 (approx.) .020 was then considered lightweight. I personally consider the instruments from 20,000 to around 100,000 to be the best period for someone looking for a classic Bach to take on professional engagements. Can others work? You bet. But after 20,000 you’ll have a better idea of what you’re getting.
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
....Selmer bought the company and settled in on standard models returned to the longer, original length leadpipe. .020 (lightweight by today’s standard) was the standard bell thickness. 26,7xx-29,999 don’t exist. Somewhere around 100,000 the standard bell thickness was increased to .023 (approx.) .020 was then considered lightweight. ....


That is very interesting. So a modern Lightweight is more true to the 1960's Bachs that everyone thinks are so special.

I wonder if they made the 190-37 Anniversary trumpet .20 gauge. If so, they have not advertised it at all.
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trumpaholic
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a killer Bach Strad 66,XXX which I am selling as I need a M bore horn. This Bach is very open with superb valves and compression. Original lacquer is very good! Listed here on the Herald.
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