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Adams v Monette v Taylor


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Claude1949
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean- Thank you. I totally agree w/you and appreciate your honest and informative opinion. There are so many amazing horns today that I wish I had about a million bucks to spend w/out hurting my bank account!!!!! I actually would buy a pre-owned Monette, but I don't think my wife would understand....she already says I have way too many trumpets....LOL
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Larry played my horn in the shop in England flew to US and ordered one next day. The normal enigma is a great horn, the silver rimless bell is beyond good. I’m retired comfortably but 7000 and up is a lot to pay, but if I had to make a living playing 1 horn that would be it. I’ve only played 2 Monettes and they were very nice horns and sounded great, but the eclipse is of a different character, and everyone likes different sounds. The Conn is a deeper more orchestral sound, the eclipse has noticeably more overtones and much more free upper register. Both horns noticeably vibrate in your hands despite being quite heavy😅. I don’t mind the weight to get the sound. More sparkling than bright in upper register, never seems to go sharp. I truly wish everyone could find the grail as you and I seem to have. Now if I could just find the trick of playing either close to their potential.😂
Rod
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deanoaks
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes.. The neverending quest of actually doing justice to the expensive beast you have put in your hand.

I have very limited experience with older Conn instruments, I have historically not been a fan of older instruments (with the exception of Schagerl, but even those horns are only 20ish years old). The people I know who own them absolutely stand by them though.
It's interesting, that Eclipse that Larry has, that's a 1-piece Sterling Silver bell, right? You lose a lot of the low and med overtones and get a BOATLOAD of highs which are brilliant for certain types of play. It's the response of sterling silver that scares the living bejesus out of me. The Monettes I've played (especially the RAJAs and their latest SAMADHI that I had the fortune of playing) is almost telepathic and respond like a dream. But I believe that Dave uses copper and yellow brass in his bells, but absolutely do not quote me on that.
However- the instruments I've played with silver almost have an explosive response. Which I can see the appeal of, but it just startles me a bit. It was the Lotus I played with a yellow brass stem, sterling silver flair, and sterling silver tuning slide that really had me going.

I'm not a huge fan of the heavier instruments just because I can't play efficiently enough over a BQ or solo performance (which is primarily what I do) to have the horn play the way it is designed to. They just shut down if there's tension being put into them. The complexity of the sound they produce is amazing though. I could listen to OTHER people play them all day. Especially Terance Blanchard. I had a Monette B994 once upon a time and using a static tuner I found a sweet spot on the pitch where the harmonics were so potent that my tuner registered me as flat and sharp simultaneously. The similar reading you would get if you had your tuner on a stand during an ensemble warm up. I've not seen something like that since I switched to my XLT+.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It rewards efficient play. The sound is quite something. It’s a lot of trumpet. The 7 leadpipes I got with it give a lot of latitude with the blow, extremely responsive even at low volume. Not like the king or Reynolds silver bellle I’ve owned in past. Might b the rimless design or the higher than sterling purity 99%. The design and material aren’t for everyone and for me at least the horn isn’t tiring. It is however louder than a normal horn by about 10-15% in fron of horn, I have to back off a bit and saves some gas over 2-3 hours. I think that the horn that fits and responds as you wish helps endurance and sound. It will never break up and if you play it with effort it can eat you lunch, but that would be too loud to listen to.
How did you feel about the maw valves on the lotus. I love to see them on a straight thru design like my Leblanc Delmonte. That would probably be the least resistance due to perturbations of the air. I have always liked horns with little resistance and prefer any resistance close to my face (leadpipe or mouthpiece). But everyone’s different. Curious about the valves tho🧐
Rod
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deanoaks wrote:
Ah yes.. The neverending quest of actually doing justice to the expensive beast you have put in your hand.

I have very limited experience with older Conn instruments, I have historically not been a fan of older instruments (with the exception of Schagerl, but even those horns are only 20ish years old). The people I know who own them absolutely stand by them though.
It's interesting, that Eclipse that Larry has, that's a 1-piece Sterling Silver bell, right? You lose a lot of the low and med overtones and get a BOATLOAD of highs which are brilliant for certain types of play. It's the response of sterling silver that scares the living bejesus out of me. The Monettes I've played (especially the RAJAs and their latest SAMADHI that I had the fortune of playing) is almost telepathic and respond like a dream. But I believe that Dave uses copper and yellow brass in his bells, but absolutely do not quote me on that.
However- the instruments I've played with silver almost have an explosive response. Which I can see the appeal of, but it just startles me a bit. It was the Lotus I played with a yellow brass stem, sterling silver flair, and sterling silver tuning slide that really had me going.

I'm not a huge fan of the heavier instruments just because I can't play efficiently enough over a BQ or solo performance (which is primarily what I do) to have the horn play the way it is designed to. They just shut down if there's tension being put into them. The complexity of the sound they produce is amazing though. I could listen to OTHER people play them all day. Especially Terance Blanchard. I had a Monette B994 once upon a time and using a static tuner I found a sweet spot on the pitch where the harmonics were so potent that my tuner registered me as flat and sharp simultaneously. The similar reading you would get if you had your tuner on a stand during an ensemble warm up. I've not seen something like that since I switched to my XLT+.


Hi,

Unless I am misunderstanding you are suggesting that Sterling Silver bells '...lose a lot of low and med range overtones and get a boatload of highs...'?

I have to disagree strongly there, I have had a lot of experience with Sterling bells and I believe the magic of them is that they give outstanding projection without breaking up (and the sound becoming primarily formed of higher overtones and fewer lower ones). Indeed, if you overdo the Sterling Silver it can prevent a player from producing enough high overtones; the Lotus 'Orchestral' model with a complete Sterling bell is an example of this, and many players commented that the sound would not brighten enough. To assert that Sterling bells produce a sound that is formed with few lower overtones is incorrect I would say.

Hope this can add to the discussion.

All the best
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deanoaks
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps we will have to disagree then (unless you have used a sound spectral analysis to definitely prove one of us right, in which case, please prove me wrong). On the sterling silver bells that I've had experience with I have absolutely been unable to get the sound to calm down through the use of med-low overtones. I know there are a wide set of variables including purity of the silver, density of the silver, one-piece v two-piece and the material of the flair v stem, mouthpiece combo, and so on. I will admit that my experience with silver bells is limited as I just did not care for the experiences that I had with them. I do see the merit in the sound they produce though!

The projection in the sound (from my experience and teaching) comes from the higher overtones as those frequencies are moving faster, hence why they project so well. The meds and lower add definition and complexity but do not travel as far or as well. I could be wrong on all counts because I've not done extensive research on the matter, just from what my ear has perceived and small studies in my undergrad.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deanoaks wrote:
Perhaps we will have to disagree then (unless you have used a sound spectral analysis to definitely prove one of us right, in which case, please prove me wrong). On the sterling silver bells that I've had experience with I have absolutely been unable to get the sound to calm down through the use of med-low overtones. I know there are a wide set of variables including purity of the silver, density of the silver, one-piece v two-piece and the material of the flair v stem, mouthpiece combo, and so on. I will admit that my experience with silver bells is limited as I just did not care for the experiences that I had with them. I do see the merit in the sound they produce though!

The projection in the sound (from my experience and teaching) comes from the higher overtones as those frequencies are moving faster, hence why they project so well. The meds and lower add definition and complexity but do not travel as far or as well. I could be wrong on all counts because I've not done extensive research on the matter, just from what my ear has perceived and small studies in my undergrad.


Hi,

Ok. Its good to hear your opinion and I am respectful of it.

I wonder if perhaps you have a particular sound concept which doesn't gel well with the clear and brilliant qualities of Sterling silver. Your sound (which is absolutely great btw!) is quite dense and thick; if that is your sound concept then I wouldn't be surprised if Sterling silver, and the natural immediacy of it, doesn't appeal to you as an individual.

Cool discussion!

All the best
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have a spectral Analyser via TE tuner. remember that the only true comparison is the same horn mounted with a brass and a silver, its not a tuning bell horn so that wont happen. But in comparison with these horns. A 1965 silver flair, 1954 Holton Stratodyne, A super 20 Harry James, A Callet Jazz, a Mount Vernon 37, An Olds recording and an Earlier Enigma with a bell tune brass rimless bell. Both Eclipse and the old Conn had stronger hi and low overtones than the rest. The 2 enigmas had stronger hi overtones than the Conns, and the Conn had stronger lower overtones. Sorry after I bought my Taylor Flumpet I couldn’t afford a Monette to compare and they are rare as hen peckers where I live. I usually use the analyses to see if embouchre changes are having good effect, but Ive done this a few times. I test everything Ive owned (over 40 horns in last 4 years) and dont remember any being stronger than those three, but the others have been tested side by side.
Interesting discussion, and not everyone will agree on silver bells because much depends on design, weight , and skill throwing the bell. But I made a big bet work and Ive been so pleased with the product. Leigh didn’t believe me when I told him what it would produce, but he’s a big believer now!
Rod
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Adams vs. Monette vs. Taylor Reply with quote

Was most interested to read the comments by Trent Austin who has probably sampled as many horns as anyone on the planet and would be a good judge of "hornflesh." At 68 I will leave that search for the perfect horn to younger men still able to conjure up magic. That the Adams horns are priced similar to Bach and many others is great. I received a message from someone in the herald here about Adams horns, which until I picked up mine again I knew nothing about. He had ordered a Van Laar to try but said that Adams horns were very, just very well made. If they also give you the flexibility, slotting, sound and playability you want they could fall into that category. I still miss my 1972-73 Benge 5. I know there are better horns out there but that one was my dream horn and I had it for 25 years. Good luck in the quest for the grail to everyone else.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adams. never played one and have only read reviews.
simple matter. very fair pricing along with the ability to select from a large and wide range of gear. this along with the excellence of the product.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning Monettes, you can make an interesting comparison by listening to one of the very early recordings that Wynton Marsalis made playing a Bach trumpet (for example, Live at Blues Alley) and then comparing his sound to a more recent recording on a Monette trumpet. Which is better is a matter of personal preference, I suppose. Obviously, Mr. Marsalis prefers the Monette.

Me, not so much. But then, this is based on recordings. I wonder whether my impression of a live performance would be different.

Warm regards,
Grits
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
Concerning Monettes, you can make an interesting comparison by listening to one of the very early recordings that Wynton Marsalis made playing a Bach trumpet (for example, Live at Blues Alley) and then comparing his sound to a more recent recording on a Monette trumpet. Which is better is a matter of personal preference, I suppose. Obviously, Mr. Marsalis prefers the Monette.

Me, not so much. But then, this is based on recordings. I wonder whether my impression of a live performance would be different.

Warm regards,
Grits

Aren’t the recordings from different eras in his career? His sound concept then and now may play a part in any difference.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]
Aren’t the recordings from different eras in his career? His sound concept then and now may play a part in any difference.[/quote]

I suppose that "sound concept" is the whole point of the discussion.

I presume that Mr. Marsalis had an idea of what kind of sound he wanted and that drove his decision to change his equipment, though not necessarily. It is a possibility that some other factor (cosmetics, flexibility, feel, accuracy, business deal, etc.) drove his decision, but I personally don't think that likely. I presume that sound was his sole reason; it would be for me.

So, he is a complete master of his instrument; he can pretty much sound however he likes, though to do so apparently involved changing his equipment.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that the difference in sound between his early recordings and his later ones is due to time. It was not time that changed his sound. It was himself changing over time. Part of the change, part of him chasing the sound that he desired involved changing his equipment. You can hear the difference in sound between his earlier and later recordings. No doubt, the change in sound was quite intentional. Still, the change in equipment was substantially responsible for the difference that you can hear.

Warm regards,
Grits
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
Quote:

Aren’t the recordings from different eras in his career? His sound concept then and now may play a part in any difference.


I suppose that "sound concept" is the whole point of the discussion.

I presume that Mr. Marsalis had an idea of what kind of sound he wanted and that drove his decision to change his equipment, though not necessarily. It is a possibility that some other factor (cosmetics, flexibility, feel, accuracy, business deal, etc.) drove his decision, but I personally don't think that likely. I presume that sound was his sole reason; it would be for me.

So, he is a complete master of his instrument; he can pretty much sound however he likes, though to do so apparently involved changing his equipment.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that the difference in sound between his early recordings and his later ones is due to time. It was not time that changed his sound. It was himself changing over time. Part of the change, part of him chasing the sound that he desired involved changing his equipment. You can hear the difference in sound between his earlier and later recordings. No doubt, the change in sound was quite intentional. Still, the change in equipment was substantially responsible for the difference that you can hear.

Warm regards,
Grits

All of the assumptions you state do not prove the equipment change was responsible.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Just to jump in on the conversation regarding Marsalis and Monette; until you have heard him live, in either a club or large concert hall, it is impossible to grasp the quality of the sound he produces.

For some reason that Monette does not record well, none of the recordings or youtube clips do the sound any justice and I (even as a die hard fan) would admit that his tone really doesn't sound great on most recorded content (the playing itself is always remarkable).

However, every time I hear him live (once or twice a year for the last four or five years) I am just blown away! The sound is smoother than anything I've ever heard, incredibly warm and yet projecting, and never bright nor harsh. For the niche that Wynton fills these days, it is pretty much perfect. If there was a criticism it would be that the sound doesn't have the clear 'clarion' tone that would suit a principal orchestral player or a lead player. Only once you have heard him in person can someone decide whether Wynton's sound concept has gone in the wrong direction or not.

Hope this adds to discussion.

All the best
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Claude1949
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a recording studio owner & a trumpeter I can certify that the sound you hear on a recording has more to do w/choice of microphone; positioning of microphone; what reverb effects were used; what medium was it recorded to (digital or analog); what mixing board was used; and about 100 other variants. So, the "difference" you hear from one recording to another has little to do w/what horn Wynton was playing and much more to do w/what I have described above. Of course, the horn is part of the recording "chain," but the variances in sound, can be changed in the recording.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude1949 wrote:
As a recording studio owner & a trumpeter I can certify that the sound you hear on a recording has more to do w/choice of microphone; positioning of microphone; what reverb effects were used; what medium was it recorded to (digital or analog); what mixing board was used; and about 100 other variants. So, the "difference" you hear from one recording to another has little to do w/what horn Wynton was playing and much more to do w/what I have described above. Of course, the horn is part of the recording "chain," but the variances in sound, can be changed in the recording.


I believe that to be true. Which makes me wonder if there is a recording engineer on the planet who could make me sound good.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Claude1949
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahhhhh....grits and shrimp....my favorites are are near the Outer Banks, where my brother-in-law lives! Anyway, I can guarantee you that if you can play a tune well, I can make your trumpet sound great. I have an all analog studio w/about 20 vintage & modern microphones; a whole lot of "processors," and a DDA 24 channel Mixing Desk (the same one David Dearden used on some of the Beattles' albums).
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude1949 wrote:
...if you can play a tune well,..


I knew that there had to be a catch.

Oh, and it's not grits and shrimp. It's shrimp and grits if you don't want to sound like a yankee.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Getzen 3810 C Cornet
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Claude1949
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shrimp & grits!!!!! LOVE THEM!!!!!!
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