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Suggestions for valve oil for Kanstul 1525 flugel?


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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Suggestions for valve oil for Kanstul 1525 flugel? Reply with quote

Recently in a discussion of this horn I read a comment to the effect that the poster was not a fan of Kanstul valves. I've never had a problem until now with mine. The flugel is about 10 years old. The tech doesn't see anything wrong, and yet once in awhile (very infrequently) the first valve will stay down a fraction of a second before popping back up.

I use UltraPure oil (the newer formula) from Dillon's.

My hand position is pretty good / centered, so I don't think that's the issue but I do realize every player has a personal 'slant' as they depress valves, and this could be what's happening over time.

So, in search of 100% performance instead of the 99.5% I'm getting, I thought I would ask here if anyone who has this horn has a recommendation.

Thanks in advance.
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Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had success with Berp Bio Oil Light on my 1525. I don't play nearly as much (or as well) as you, though. I know you play almost exclusively flugel so after 10 years that is a lot of use. Since it is the first valve I wonder about leadpipe deposits finding their way into the valve. You say your tech sees nothing wrong, and I imagine he knows how much you play. So there's no harm in trying a different oil, but I would make sure everything is as clean as possible from the old lubricant before trying a different oil.

After 10 years of performing on the one horn, maybe getting another one is justifiable? If you really love the 1525 you might want to try to find another before the supply disappears as Kanstul is looking to become history. Another option is a Flip Oakes flugel - being very similar to the Kanstul and made my them.

You are a terrific talent and I love your stuff. You deserve a new horn!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used Al Cass oil on all my horns for more than thirty years. Every time I try a different brand I am disappointed.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BerpBio Oil #2 or #3, Hetman 2 or 3 will work as well.

Kanstul fit their valves on the loose side and that only increases with wear. There has to be a barrier between piston and casing. That, and oiling every day you play.
-Lionel
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt,

Before you change anything, clean the horn really well. If there is gunk in the transfer ports between the valves, be sure to snake them out thoroughly. If you don't already have them, buy the blue microfiber towels from the cleaning aisle at Home Depot and use them to scrub and swab the casing bores and pistons. If you have a valve cleaning rod, use that to wind the clean dry towel tightly through each casing.

Swab the bores with cider vinegar several times and soak the pistons in it for 30 minutes. Then oil them and see if that doesn't help. If the synthetic components of your oil have built up over the years and are fouling the piston, this should remove them. The vinegar won't hurt the valves at all.

If they still stick like before, take off the valve buttons and grasp each of the valve stems. Try to move them from side to side and back and forth. If you can see any movement where the stem goes through the top cap, it may be that that valve is worn and needs to be rebuilt.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, Kanstul has always lapped their valves to a 0.001" clearance between the pistons and casings. That is why they often need time to "break in." If Kanstul valves are not tight, they are either worn or have been "lapped all to hell," as Zig used to say, by someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only oil recommendation I ever heard Zig give was to NOT use Al Cass.

For almost 20 years I had tremendous success with Zaja. Because of the unreliability of seeing Zaja for sale, I recently switched to Tromba T-2, and am very happy with it.

I keep my horns very clean. The ones I use most often get a full cleaning every 3 to 6 months, all the others at least once a calendar year if not more.

And of course regular lead pipe swabbing....
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
The only oil recommendation I ever heard Zig give was to NOT use Al Cass.


I love Al Cass, it's brought me lots of work to do.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
trpthrld wrote:
The only oil recommendation I ever heard Zig give was to NOT use Al Cass.


I love Al Cass, it's brought me lots of work to do.

I used Al Cass for years. My valves often had a minor seize when I removed the horn from the case after it sat for a few days. Nothing serious, they worked fine after the first press and re-oiling.

However, that never happens with Hetmans.
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hose
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a recent purchase of Yamaha trpt I was introduced to Yamaha synthetic valve oil. I tried it on my Kanstul Cornet that has aways been a tad slow and a Lawler Flugel which also is slow. Neither horns had sticking valves. The Yamaha oil greatly improved the action of both the Kanstul and the Lawler.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, how well a valve oil can work can vary not only from person to person, but horn to horn played by the same person.

Case in point:

After giving up Al Cass, I used Ultra Pure on all my horns. Worked great.... except on my Radial. So, I tried Yamaha Synthetic (Regular) and that works awesome on it. I also tried it on my other horns and it maybe works the same or only a couple percentage points better on them, not really noticeable. My Benge doesn't really care, the valves work with any oil, so far.

So, it's worth exploring if you're not satisfied with the performance on a given horn. Yamaha, Hetman, maybe Monster Oil are my recommendations aside from Ultra Pure, which you're already using. There are several other good ones out there, but those are the ones I've used personally and like.
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good advice. I own a 1525 - best flugelhorn out in my book. As others said, give the valves and valve casings, including ports a super good cleaning. Possibly use Dawn dishwashing to remove any oil and then give it an extra heavy rinse. Oil with a different brand valve oil than what you have used in the past. I use Bluejuice, but any leading brand is fine. Let us know how it turns out.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevericks wrote:
Lots of good advice. I own a 1525 - best flugelhorn out in my book. As others said, give the valves and valve casings, including ports a super good cleaning. Possibly use Dawn dishwashing to remove any oil and then give it an extra heavy rinse. Oil with a different brand valve oil than what you have used in the past. I use Bluejuice, but any leading brand is fine. Let us know how it turns out.

For those wishing to clean the ports using a normal snake, cleaning them with the valves in will allow one to direct the snake through the various ports by using the different valve combinations. Removing the valve crooks allows shorter access than going through the mouthpipe.
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irememberchet
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Valve oil for Kanstul 1525 Reply with quote

Hi Matt,

Another vote here for Berp Bio Oil. I used Ultra Pure synthetic for years, but at the urging of a couple of friends, gave Berp Bio Oil a try. It has a very pleasant citrus smell, is plant based, and seems to last longer on both my trumpet and flugelhorn valves (I also own a Kanstul 1525) than any other valve oil I have tried. It lubricates exceptionally well, and it lasts and lasts!

Just my two cents!
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for the great advice here.

veery715, you're very kind. I do prefer flugelhorn to other instruments but I don't play as much anymore and I'm sure my flugel is not yet worn out. The compression is still outstanding.

I've also at different times tried most of what has been mentioned here. I do like the Ultra Pure on my various trumpets but perhaps I should try some others on the flugel and see. I always had good results with Tromba T2 and only switched when it became unavailable sometimes. I still have some and I'll try that again.

There are two comments about how tight Kanstul valves are. The first says they are loose and a thicker Hetman oil (2 or 3) will work. I tend to agree with the second comment that Kanstul valves seem very tight to me - close tolerances. I would think Hetman #1 might be a better choice. I have used that on new horns.

Never had any luck with Al Cass but don't flame me for this. I really detest Yamaha oil and their slide grease even more (even on my Yamaha trumpets). Bluejuice can leave more residue than I like. But I respect that these things work for some of you.

Berp Bio Oil is intriguing; never tried that.

And thank you for the various recommendations on cleaning the horn (especially before trying another oil brand). This topic is always a favorite here as we all have our routines (some of which make sense). I assure you, my horns are cleaned thoroughly every few months. I use vinegar and Dawn, microfiber cloths, cleaning swabs (love Tim's), valve brush etc. etc.

I think I'll try the T2 first, then Hetman #1. If I learn anything useful, I will post back. Again, many thanks for all your advice.

matt
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Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used Monster oil with success and mostly use Hetman.

At a trumpet clinic Wayne Tanabe of Yamaha recommended Yamaha synthetic or Hetman. Al Cass evaporates very quickly, Hetman does not. I use it on my Schilke pic which really gets played only a few times a year and the pistons do not freeze on me.
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MusicByThePound
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been a happy Al Cass user forever.

Two weeks ago I tried Hetman synthetics for the first time ever to see if they would help with a sluggish valve on an older horn. What I ended up doing was using a couple dabs of #5 then a regular dose of #1. All good so far.

I had heard never to mix synthetic with regular oil. However, being able to mix different thickness of synthetics seemed to be an advantage. Anyone have any "recipes" to share?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MusicByThePound wrote:
Been a happy Al Cass user forever.

Two weeks ago I tried Hetman synthetics for the first time ever to see if they would help with a sluggish valve on an older horn. ...

------------------------------
Were the valves sluggish with Al Cass?
If not, how did they respond when using Al Cass?

I use a heavy petroleum oil on valves (which makes them sluggish), and then add 1 or 2 drops of Cass (which is also petroleum) to give good action. That combo works good for me.
My heavy oil is drug store pharmaceutical grade Mineral Oil (cheap and easily available, no smell, no stains).

Jay
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MusicByThePound
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its the 2nd valve - can work fine for weeks then starts sticking down - sometimes cleaning helps, sometimes makes it worse - probably a slightly bent casing from a drop.

Years ago someone showed me about using Lithium grease cut with Al Cass on another old horn with a sticky valve (also helps seal leaky valves). I was looking at trying this again and got the idea to try the different Hetman's instead. Same idea as your mineral oil/AC recipe.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use straight Mineral Oil on the slides (instead of grease). It gives good action, and doesn't produce the 'sticky goo' in the tubing. I also use straight MO in the loose valves of a very old Euph (played for social Tuba Christmas events). MO is also a decent general purpose household oil if you want to avoid the typical 'oil' smell or stains.

Jay
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