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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject: Long Tones Reply with quote

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In another thread in the Claude Gordon forum Russell Dixon wrote:

Mainly play Long Tones, Clarke Technical Studies #1 and Schlossberg now along with a Range Study that Matt Anklan gave me to play at the end of my daily studies.


That got me wondering. Aren't the CG exercises that require you to sustain the last note until you run out of gas the functional equivalent of practicing long tones? If you are doing those CG exercises, is there a need to add long tone practice to your routine?

I hope that the answer is no because by the time you finish an entire CG lesson, you've pretty much run out of daylight.

Grits
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude did not believe in the practice of long tones (and neither did Herbert L. Clarke). They both felt it better to be doing something other than just holding a note for a long time. That's why in the advanced form of the Clarke Technical Studies one plays each exercise over and over very quietly in order to develop wind control. That way, while developing that wind control, one is also developing flexibility and fingers.

The Part One exercises in Systematic Approach are not considered to be "Long Tone Exercises" because they are not played in the way typical long tone exercises are played. When holding the last note of each Part One exercise the goal is not to play quietly and see how long one can hold the note the way one does with typical long tone exercises. The point is to play in a full comfortable volume, and as one runs out of air one is supposed to try to crescendo the note (even though one won't be able to since almost empty of air) and really squeeze and work the blowing muscles.

Personally, before studying with Claude I practiced long tone exercises all the time, as they were assigned to me by most if not all my former teachers. In retrospect the main thing they did was cause over-practice problems, worn out face muscles and sore lips.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My attention deficit disorder prevents me from playing long tones.

Coupled with, thinking that energy could be spent doing exercises, or working on exudes, or any other shedding besides just sitting on a note, for what seems like an eternity.

I may be wrong, but I just don't have the mental stamina to do them
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I can't thank you enough for your contributions to this site and for answering my questions. Your post cleared things up for me.

By the way, it came as a great relief that I don't need to add long tones to my daily practice sessions.

Grits
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BPL
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every exercise that ends with a sustained note in a comfortable range is an opportunity to strengthen (and coordinate) the muscles of expiration.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I've tried to play long tones my chops always got sore and stiff. My teacher (who studied with both Stamp and Gordon) never assigned them. There were exercises with long held notes but there was always some movement in pitch, volume or both. I'm thinking of exercises near the beginning of the Schlossberg book.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits ... I am playing the Bill Adam Routine that starts everyday with a warm-up of Long Tones (one standard and one advanced). I hold each long tone for 8 counts at 60 beats per minute ... then, of course, rest for eight counts. This (in no way) tires my chops out and I am using a Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece with #22 throat.

Clarke Technical Studies #1 is just like an extended Long Tone if you are playing it as prescribed with one breath. I play each of these as prescribed by Clarke for eight times in one breath.

I then move on to the Schlossberg segments of the routine. This all takes about an hour and then I finish off with Range Studies. I play parts of this routine daily and never have any problems playing it; although, I do listen to my body and back-off on the range if I am feeling tired or stiff ... maybe just do my extensions up to a high G that day instead of a double C. I use a lot of air and never have marks on my lips from mouth piece pressure.

Bill Chase and Cat Anderson advocated them. I believe that the Carmine Caruso System involves a lot of Long Tones though I could be wrong.

You can hold a Long Tone for a few beats or a minute or longer ... quite a bit of difference depending on how long you hold them etc. within a routine. Mine are for warm ups and played first. The advanced segment of Long Tones warmup goes to a high F# on this Bill Adam Routine and yes, that is more of a work-out versus just a warm-up.

Here is the entire Routine:
http://www.trumpetworx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/271430394-Bill-Adams-Daily-Routine.pdf
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Last edited by RussellDDixon on Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Cat Anderson 20 minute whisper G routine, albeit a unique version of long tones, add a fifth to my range over the course of a summer when I was in high school. I went from having a respectable high C to a high G. I believe long-tones have their place.
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shofar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Long Tones Reply with quote

Hey Guys;

I believe there's nothing better than long tones. As Doc Severinson said in an interview Why Warm Up? "It seems to me that a warm-up could and should well be a complete practice session in it's own right, in that it contains the basics fundamentals of brass playing. Let us start with long tones. I accept and adhere to the use of long tones because such great brass players as Herbert L. Clarke and Tommy Dorsey both assured me of their validity. Of course they serve to "set" the embrochure immediately and strengthen it, as well as demanding the proper flow of air; as well as vitalizing the lips."

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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great posts guys.

I've learned quit a bit in a very short time from the folks on TH. One of the things that I am learning is that different things work for different people. Obviously, if it is working for you, go for it.

John Mohan's post makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately, the single biggest constraint on my ability is time. I simply cannot practice as much as I'd like or progress as fast as I would like, so I need to be efficient in my use of time. The CG curiculuum appealed to me partly because it eliminated the need for me to figure out my practice routine (saved me a lot of time).

Long tones seem to me to be an inefficient way to improve. I just think that you can accomplish more by using the time to practice different exercises - like the CG exercises. Of course, I could be wrong. That's why the alternative points of view on TH are so useful. They offer different points of view and of course, so many of the folks here have so much more experience than I do; I definitely need to keep an open mind and listen.

Having said that long tones don't seem to me to be as useful as other exercises, I do like to warm up with a n-i-c-e l-o-n-g G in the middle of the the staff. It loosens up the embouchure and it provides aural feedback on my (hopefully improving) sound.

Thanks to all for the posts.
Grits
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally have never done long tones on just one note. I very much prefer lip slurs, a la Schlossberg. I want to be able to play a resonant tone lip slur over 4 octaves. Schlossberg gets me there. While playing an improvised jazz solo, you never really know where your ear and the band will take you, and sometimes you'll want to be able to play a line from low F# up to over high C and back down again, and have every note speak and sound beautiful. Long tones, I suggest, probably won't do that. Schlossberg and other lip slurs definitely will.

Your mileage may vary! There are many ways to approach the horn, and if long tones worked for Doc they can't be bad! (I think Wynton uses them as a warm up as well, but I don't remember where I read that.) But I haven't used them in many years now.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
John,

I can't thank you enough for your contributions to this site and for answering my questions. Your post cleared things up for me.

By the way, it came as a great relief that I don't need to add long tones to my daily practice sessions.

Grits


You're very welcome!

In regard to your later post about time constraints, if you can get SA Lesson Two Parts One and Two in (total of about 25 minutes of playing with a 15 minute rest in the middle during which you can do some type of chores around the house), 10 minutes of Irons flexibilities, and play through Clarke #1 or #2 Single Tongued (K-Tongue Modified), you'll have done a good routine that will develop ability while not taking more than around 50 minutes of actual practice time to complete (spread through the day as much as possible).

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Thanks again. Your last post is gold. I wish my trumpet instructor had told me that back in junior high school.

Grits
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
The Part One exercises in Systematic Approach are not considered to be "Long Tone Exercises" because they are not played in the way typical long tone exercises are played.

What do you consider the "typical" way long tones are played? I've been having a debate on this point in another thread.

The notion that CG didn't believe in long tones struck me as odd - when I was first told about SATDP back in high school it was by someone who was working on it and their take on it was that a large part of it was *about* long tones and pedal tones. I.e. my introduction to the notion of doing long tones to increase range, power and endurance was SATDP. Page after page of being directed to hold out notes as long as physically possible and then some. That's largely why it takes so much time, because you're doing these endless, protracted "hold it as long as possible" exercises with lots of rest in between. Whether it's on the last note or on each note like in Lesson 1, how is this not "long tones"?
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no shortage of exercises that require a full tank of air to start and the exercise lasts about as long as you can. A good deal of my Stamp, Clarke and Irons studies all require care if I'm going to get through the exercise on a single breath. I don't consider any of those to be long tone exercises. I think is generally understood that long tones are about playing a single note and holding it for a long time. CG exercises that are played to the end and then held don't seem to qualify as long tones to me.

My CG and Stamp trained teacher never prescribed long tones.
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think of long tones as a listening exercise and not a breath control or endurance-building exercise. By this I mean listening to the tone of the note and trying to make it more beautiful, resonant and in tune.

How do others of you think of them differently?
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
There is no shortage of exercises that require a full tank of air to start and the exercise lasts about as long as you can...CG exercises that are played to the end and then held don't seem to qualify as long tones to me.

You seem to be saying because it's not the only note in a pattern disqualifies it as being a long tone exercise. I see a significant difference between those other exercises and the SATDP exercises in that in SATDP you still end up parking on a note and holding it as long as possible. It's a particular kind of long tone exercise.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
cheiden wrote:
There is no shortage of exercises that require a full tank of air to start and the exercise lasts about as long as you can...CG exercises that are played to the end and then held don't seem to qualify as long tones to me.

You seem to be saying because it's not the only note in a pattern disqualifies it as being a long tone exercise. I see a significant difference between those other exercises and the SATDP exercises in that in SATDP you still end up parking on a note and holding it as long as possible. It's a particular kind of long tone exercise.

I could be wrong but I always understood that "long tones" were individual notes held for a really long time. Rest. Repeat. The most extreme are those that advocate for doing this for a half hour or more.

Things like the Clarke Technical Studies were you play a figure as many times as you can in a single breath I don't believe are generally considered "long tones". Same for the CG stuff where you just hold the last note. It least it seems so to me.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different method books have sets of exercises under the heading "long tones," but they don't all do it the same way.

Merri Franquin and E.F. Goldman long tone exercises have one note per breath, with changing dynamics, usually starting pp, crescendo to f, then decrescendo back to pp. These look easy but are really difficult. They develop embouchure strength and control in the immediate vicinity around the aperture. Anyone who thinks s/he doesn't need to practice long tones ought to try playing Franquin's long tone exercises with a critical ear for pitch and sound—it can be a really humbling experience!

Schlossberg long tone drills start with single notes held on one breath but quickly move to interval exercises. Michael Sachs's long tone drills start with a note, then another a half step down, then back to the original note for a long hold. No dynamic change marked. I think both of these collections are useful, but nowhere near as focused as the Franquin and Goldman drills.

Playing Clarke Technical Studies isn't the same thing as practicing long tones. It's more like flow studies, with an objective to smooth the transition from note to note and to finger cleanly. But all that commotion clutters up the soundscape. A lot of poor aperture control can hide behind the flurry of notes. Long tone exercises expose all that.

I think the Franquin book has the best long tones exercises I've found. His idea was to practice his exercises on sound production first, then move immediately into long tones. Doesn't take a long time, and it shouldn't wear you out if done per his instructions. The goal is to develop consistent, reliable response at any dynamic and a beautiful tone without pushing.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a comeback player after a 14 year sabbatical, I found myself in need of a refocus on trumpet playing in general and, very importantly, a good all around daily routine to start putting things back together. Early on, I saw an Arturo Sandoval YouTube video in which he outlined the importance of "longer tones" to assist in making a common core sound correlation for each note in the full range of the horn (at least that's the way I remember it and the way that I applied it to my daily practice) starting on and periodically referencing 2nd line G. I break up my practice routine into a minimum of 3, and most often, 4 mini sessions per day, with a minimum of 30 minutes between (I think a Kurt Thompson direction). The "longer tones" make up the first 15 minutes of every day's practice session, taking a minimum of 30 minutes break immediately after finishing on low F#. Breaking the practice sessions up has helped me to really increase my endurance while incorporating the longer tones in a more efficient way. My effective range is now back to the consistent, full high Gs of my prior playing as a much younger man and, most recently, double high C on the top end (though I have had no need of this new found ability on any performance experience, so far). Comeback has been pretty quick as far as sound and range are concerned. Many more aspects are still under construction and probably always will be. BTW, I am retired from my day gig now, hence more time than I have ever had to focus on trumpet.
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