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sam.neufeld
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Joined: 26 Jan 2017
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Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Overcoming Endurance Issues? Reply with quote

Hi there!

Has anyone out there had a persisting endurance issue that he/she has overcome?

I am a 24 year old that just graduated from University of Miami (Master's in Jazz Performance) and New School (Bachelor's in Jazz Performance).

I have been playing for 14 years with pretty consistent endurance issues (and also range issues).

I don't think it is incredibly apparent to most people that hear me play because I have learned to disguise it a bit, but it IS incredibly apparent to me. The way I try to disguise my fatigue is by playing mainly in the staff and taking the horn off my face as much as possible, but this is SUPER frustrating to not be able to execute the ideas in my head because my chops have given out on me (sometimes after only a few songs/solos with a quartet or quintet). My highest usable note is only high C or C#, but I can't even count on that when I start to get tired.

Many great teachers have given me loads of great advice, but it can be tough sometimes because I don't think any of them have been in my shoes before. Is there anyone out there that HAS struggled with similar things?

(Even if you don't have any sort of "success" story that I am asking about, any advice is appreciated!)

Thanks!
Sam
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam,

Sorry about your struggle. I can sympathize, and offer a few suggestions based on my own experience.

First, you mentioned that you have to keep taking the horn off of your face. The Caruso exercises, found in Carmine Caruso’s “Musical Calisthenics for Brass,” can be a huge help with that. Caruso directs that you keep your mouthpiece in contact with the lips throughout each exercise, and that you maintain the same level of pressure/tension on the lips whether you are playing or resting between phrases in an exercise. You can do a Google search for "Caruso Six Notes" to get an idea of what his concept is all about.

I’ve also found Clint “Pops” McLaughlin’s “Range Pyramid” exercises to be very helpful when practiced using the Caruso concepts. They can be found in Pop's book “Trumpet Range Pyramid.”

Second, consider your breathing and breath support. Claude Gordon’s breathing exercises are a great place to start. They can be found in his “Physical Approach to Elementary Brass Playing.”

Also, throughout Gordon’s “Systematic Approach to Daily Practice” he calls for the last note in many exercises – including the Clarke Technical Studies – to be held until the air is exhausted (and longer). The combination of the breathing exercises and holding the last note of the trumpet exercises, as directed, can really help with air supply and thus endurance.

Third, are you taking enough breaks during your practice sessions, or are you wearing yourself down so that you are exhausted by gig time?

Good luck!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Overcoming Endurance Issues? Reply with quote

sam.neufeld wrote:
Hi there!

Has anyone out there had a persisting endurance issue that he/she has overcome?

I am a 24 year old that just graduated from University of Miami (Master's in Jazz Performance) and New School (Bachelor's in Jazz Performance).

I have been playing for 14 years with pretty consistent endurance issues (and also range issues).

I don't think it is incredibly apparent to most people that hear me play because I have learned to disguise it a bit, but it IS incredibly apparent to me. The way I try to disguise my fatigue is by playing mainly in the staff and taking the horn off my face as much as possible, but this is SUPER frustrating to not be able to execute the ideas in my head because my chops have given out on me (sometimes after only a few songs/solos with a quartet or quintet). My highest usable note is only high C or C#, but I can't even count on that when I start to get tired.

Many great teachers have given me loads of great advice, but it can be tough sometimes because I don't think any of them have been in my shoes before. Is there anyone out there that HAS struggled with similar things?

(Even if you don't have any sort of "success" story that I am asking about, any advice is appreciated!)

Thanks!
Sam


Been pretty "endurable" in younger days I encountered a major cricis some years ago leaving me unable to produce stable tones in the staff, meeting fatigue after one tune - in spite of diligent practise. Then I did two things that have had an phenomenal impact on my playing: 1)I took lessons, the first ever in my long musical life; A correct embouchure was the result. 2) I bought the BE book and started to practice as much as I did before but solely based on the BE method. Being my own reference I can state that nothing I ever did in practise-ways has so radically enhanced my confidence, tonal accuracy, and endurance as this method. Today I can endure a hard rehearsal in the brass band (every one familiar with brass bands knows what strain this might constitute) and be ready for another one straight away.
Furthermore, the specific elements, particularly the RI:s seem to, in a rather short time, produce this stamina, more than any other "school" I have tested. As far as I understand (mr Smiley might disagree?) some kind of "isometric training" factor might be involved). In any case the amount of time required versus results seems low. One year and a half ago I worried each rehearsal/gig about my endurance, oh what a struggle. No more, gradually during last year building up finally arriving at todays feeling of confidence. What a relief! And, still climbing!

I take it that you already have decent chops, are educated in the general mechanics of blowing, endurance and maybe range being the sole problems.
Try - you´ll be amazed. 45 USD could be a fair price for this!
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sam.neufeld
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Joined: 26 Jan 2017
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Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Sam,

Sorry about your struggle. I can sympathize, and offer a few suggestions based on my own experience.

First, you mentioned that you have to keep taking the horn off of your face. The Caruso exercises, found in Carmine Caruso’s “Musical Calisthenics for Brass,” can be a huge help with that. Caruso directs that you keep your mouthpiece in contact with the lips throughout each exercise, and that you maintain the same level of pressure/tension on the lips whether you are playing or resting between phrases in an exercise. You can do a Google search for "Caruso Six Notes" to get an idea of what his concept is all about.

I’ve also found Clint “Pops” McLaughlin’s “Range Pyramid” exercises to be very helpful when practiced using the Caruso concepts. They can be found in Pop's book “Trumpet Range Pyramid.”

Second, consider your breathing and breath support. Claude Gordon’s breathing exercises are a great place to start. They can be found in his “Physical Approach to Elementary Brass Playing.”

Also, throughout Gordon’s “Systematic Approach to Daily Practice” he calls for the last note in many exercises – including the Clarke Technical Studies – to be held until the air is exhausted (and longer). The combination of the breathing exercises and holding the last note of the trumpet exercises, as directed, can really help with air supply and thus endurance.

Third, are you taking enough breaks during your practice sessions, or are you wearing yourself down so that you are exhausted by gig time?

Good luck!


Thanks for the advice, Dayton!

I have worked with the Caruso method in the past, but unfortunately for me it was one thing that contributed to some "paralysis through analysis" issues. That was more than 5 years ago, though, so I will consider giving it another shot!

I will also check out the other methods you have mentioned!

As far as breaks, I often second guess myself. Sometimes I think I am taking too many breaks and just quitting when I start to get tired. But then sometimes I think it would be better to have longer practice sessions with more breaks throughout.
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sam.neufeld
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Overcoming Endurance Issues? Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
sam.neufeld wrote:
Hi there!

Has anyone out there had a persisting endurance issue that he/she has overcome?

I am a 24 year old that just graduated from University of Miami (Master's in Jazz Performance) and New School (Bachelor's in Jazz Performance).

I have been playing for 14 years with pretty consistent endurance issues (and also range issues).

I don't think it is incredibly apparent to most people that hear me play because I have learned to disguise it a bit, but it IS incredibly apparent to me. The way I try to disguise my fatigue is by playing mainly in the staff and taking the horn off my face as much as possible, but this is SUPER frustrating to not be able to execute the ideas in my head because my chops have given out on me (sometimes after only a few songs/solos with a quartet or quintet). My highest usable note is only high C or C#, but I can't even count on that when I start to get tired.

Many great teachers have given me loads of great advice, but it can be tough sometimes because I don't think any of them have been in my shoes before. Is there anyone out there that HAS struggled with similar things?

(Even if you don't have any sort of "success" story that I am asking about, any advice is appreciated!)

Thanks!
Sam


Been pretty "endurable" in younger days I encountered a major cricis some years ago leaving me unable to produce stable tones in the staff, meeting fatigue after one tune - in spite of diligent practise. Then I did two things that have had an phenomenal impact on my playing: 1)I took lessons, the first ever in my long musical life; A correct embouchure was the result. 2) I bought the BE book and started to practice as much as I did before but solely based on the BE method. Being my own reference I can state that nothing I ever did in practise-ways has so radically enhanced my confidence, tonal accuracy, and endurance as this method. Today I can endure a hard rehearsal in the brass band (every one familiar with brass bands knows what strain this might constitute) and be ready for another one straight away.
Furthermore, the specific elements, particularly the RI:s seem to, in a rather short time, produce this stamina, more than any other "school" I have tested. As far as I understand (mr Smiley might disagree?) some kind of "isometric training" factor might be involved). In any case the amount of time required versus results seems low. One year and a half ago I worried each rehearsal/gig about my endurance, oh what a struggle. No more, gradually during last year building up finally arriving at todays feeling of confidence. What a relief! And, still climbing!

I take it that you already have decent chops, are educated in the general mechanics of blowing, endurance and maybe range being the sole problems.
Try - you´ll be amazed. 45 USD could be a fair price for this!



Seymor,

I'm so glad to hear that someone out there has overcome a struggle similar to mine!

I just looked up the BE book (this is my first time hearing of it). Do you happen to know if any of the music shops in NYC carry the book? If so, I could even pick it up today!
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PC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I could not recommend more heartily Greg Spence's Mystery to Mastery Method! In fact, it has produced for me a jump in endurance in an almost instantaneous way... Of course, this is very individual and some elements of his method are also found in others, but for me, it crystallised concepts I vaguely knew about and produced a spark in my brain with the result that painful 3 set gigs almost became a breeze (not quite there as I still fall back on old no-no's). Range-wise, I am improving slowly, but the limit notes are available at any time now, whereas before I would slowly miss my top notes as time went.

Best,
Pierre.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get lessons with John Raymond in NYC
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This problem can be attributed to a variety of potential causes.

If your technique is correct then the problem would seem to be that the muscles controlling your embouchure need to be strengthened. The pencil exercise can help strengthen those muscles.

If the problem isn't lack of strength then the problem would seem to be related to technique. Excessive pressure will cause rapid fatigue. So will an inefficient embouchure, causing you to work too hard.

What advice have you gotten from your teachers? Did anything help?
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: Overcoming Endurance Issues? Reply with quote

sam.neufeld wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
sam.neufeld wrote:
Hi there!

Has anyone out there had a persisting endurance issue that he/she has overcome?

I am a 24 year old that just graduated from University of Miami (Master's in Jazz Performance) and New School (Bachelor's in Jazz Performance).

I have been playing for 14 years with pretty consistent endurance issues (and also range issues).

I don't think it is incredibly apparent to most people that hear me play because I have learned to disguise it a bit, but it IS incredibly apparent to me. The way I try to disguise my fatigue is by playing mainly in the staff and taking the horn off my face as much as possible, but this is SUPER frustrating to not be able to execute the ideas in my head because my chops have given out on me (sometimes after only a few songs/solos with a quartet or quintet). My highest usable note is only high C or C#, but I can't even count on that when I start to get tired.

Many great teachers have given me loads of great advice, but it can be tough sometimes because I don't think any of them have been in my shoes before. Is there anyone out there that HAS struggled with similar things?

(Even if you don't have any sort of "success" story that I am asking about, any advice is appreciated!)

Thanks!
Sam


Been pretty "endurable" in younger days I encountered a major cricis some years ago leaving me unable to produce stable tones in the staff, meeting fatigue after one tune - in spite of diligent practise. Then I did two things that have had an phenomenal impact on my playing: 1)I took lessons, the first ever in my long musical life; A correct embouchure was the result. 2) I bought the BE book and started to practice as much as I did before but solely based on the BE method. Being my own reference I can state that nothing I ever did in practise-ways has so radically enhanced my confidence, tonal accuracy, and endurance as this method. Today I can endure a hard rehearsal in the brass band (every one familiar with brass bands knows what strain this might constitute) and be ready for another one straight away.
Furthermore, the specific elements, particularly the RI:s seem to, in a rather short time, produce this stamina, more than any other "school" I have tested. As far as I understand (mr Smiley might disagree?) some kind of "isometric training" factor might be involved). In any case the amount of time required versus results seems low. One year and a half ago I worried each rehearsal/gig about my endurance, oh what a struggle. No more, gradually during last year building up finally arriving at todays feeling of confidence. What a relief! And, still climbing!

I take it that you already have decent chops, are educated in the general mechanics of blowing, endurance and maybe range being the sole problems.
Try - you´ll be amazed. 45 USD could be a fair price for this!



Seymor,

I'm so glad to hear that someone out there has overcome a struggle similar to mine!

I just looked up the BE book (this is my first time hearing of it). Do you happen to know if any of the music shops in NYC carry the book? If so, I could even pick it up today!



Hi!
Yeah - we often think we´re the only ones.....I did for sure
"Something must be specifically rotten with poor me". At one point I even thought I was struck with `Parkinson´s disease
Admittedly the BE method represents some serious thinking outside the box - but in my own humble opinion its impact on my chops has been downright amazing! And as age was mentioned in a post down below I could add that I am 74. Kaizen!
However, living&blowing in a far way land, across the ocean I honestly have no idea of where in New York to pick up this book.
Personally I ordered it from Ko de Rooij in the Netherlands.
But, search mr Smileys own site:http://trumpetteacher.net/order.html
and you will most certainly find an answer!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Endurance problems are caused by isometric tension. It is not what you practice but how you practice. Get a teacher who understands this.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1.

IME they are caused by tension and lack of breath support. The only way to really tell is to get with a good teacher.
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hvand
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some internet advice ... though it has helped me.

1) Most of my endurance problems were due to taking breaths that subtly changed my embouchure. You can diagnose the problem by playing a passage and breath only through your nose. If you can play longer, you are likely making the same mistake. I fixed it by taking breaths by pulling my lower lip away from the mouthpiece rather than disturbing the corners.

2) For passages with high notes, I concentrate on getting a good sound on the notes leading up to the high notes. There is a tendency to make subtle changes when you "prepare" for a high note. If I think about maintaining a good sound, I am less likely to miss.

All of this presumes that your fundamental set up is right. If it is, your endurance should be fine. If your endurance is a problem, than you are likely getting away from your initial set. If your initial set up is wrong, it will never work. You need a good teacher to help you in that case.
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sam.neufeld
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone for the responses!

Does anyone have a few suggestions for great teachers in New York City?
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Usedtobegood
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sam.neufeld wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the responses!

Does anyone have a few suggestions for great teachers in New York City?


I would give Peter Bond of the MET a jingle his handle on TH is Peter Bond.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sam,
yes, it can be caused by embouchure, technic, breathing, etc etc etc.
Hard to say without listening/seeing you.
So, for all these parameters, the best is to go to a good teacher. Bobby Shew's a great one

I'd just wonder if you're not playing a mpc with a too much large ID. If that's the case, by downsizing to the right size, your endurance and range issues will leave you almost very very very quick !

best
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, it's all about letting the air do all the work! I believe in fitness - I exercise 6 days a week. Total body strength, including legs, core, and upper body, are essential for endurance on demanding gigs, because you won't have to tense up to play, you can relax.

But after physical fitness, the most important is to let the air do all the work! When the air stops working, then your chops take over, and will soon tire out. This James Morrison video was a game changer for me, I hope that it helps you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkbxa8LcZj4

Good luck!!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sam.neufeld wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the responses!

Does anyone have a few suggestions for great teachers in New York City?

Catch up with Mike Sailors . . . I think he went through something similar to what you are going through. Tell him I said hey!


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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I experienced endurance issues when I bought a new horn that was a lot more open than my bach strad. I had been using a fairly large mouthpiece with a big back bore with success on the strad. It took me probably a year to figure out that the horrible struggles I was having on gigs was due to my total setup being too open. I downsized mouthpiece and the endurance issues went away.

Sometimes I have had endurance issues on gigs that were cured by reducing the amount of practice I was doing at the time. My chops were not recovering from the gigs in between.

Good luck finding anwers to your issue, it is no fun making music when there is a physical struggle going on.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sam.neufeld wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the responses!

Does anyone have a few suggestions for great teachers in New York City?


John Raymond
http://www.johnraymondmusic.net/

Jeremy Miloszewicz
http://www.jeremymilos.com/
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
+1.

IME they are caused by tension and lack of breath support. The only way to really tell is to get with a good teacher.


IMO the two are so intertwined I don't know if I breathe to relax or relax to breathe.
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