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Works for every player???????


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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-11-21 20:51, West-Coast-Horns wrote:
I just like to see the teacher as a demonstrator of their own teachings.


Using this criteria Carmine Caruso would not have "saved" dozens of pros with wrecked embouchures. What could a sax player teach a trumpeter?

Dave
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve edited this post because I have come across embouchure information that I have found to be much more efficient than my previous views. Please see my latest posts in the Jerome Callet Forum on TCE or some more recent posts in Jeff Smiley’s BE Forum. Thanks and all the best, Lex.

[ This Message was edited by: ljazztrm on 2004-07-22 11:14 ]
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bert,

In your last post at this topic, you mentioned a rolled in buzz, coming from the squeak. You've also mentioned the difficulty of tonguing while rolled in. Somehow my brains had an idea and I'm sure where it came from, but here it is: have you tried attacking your squeak and/or rolled in buzz? Perhaps tonguing them without the mouthpiece and horn could trick you into an easier setting. Personally I can't do any of it. I'm glad that I can squeak fine, but I can't drop the pitch a lot, nor can I tongue my squeak. At least, not yet! It's just a (bag of tricks) thought.

Ko
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HJ
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Have to make a small correction here, in my last post (isn't this a nice trumpet piece?????) I mean Lip Squeek, of course and not lip squeeze, this is more something I did before I learned about BE. So I also mean Squeekbuzzing.

And Ko, I tried to tongue it but with no success at all.

Bert
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West-Coast-Horns
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't belive it is unorthodox for a teacher to also be the prime demonstrator, that is all I am trying to say. I think we all at one time have taken lessons from some one who tells us to do this and that, but cannot do either. I have always preferred to take from people that are fantastic demonstrators of the skills they are teaching. Not to bust Jeff's chops, but because a student has double C's, doesn't make the embouchure balanced by no means. It seems that the claim to fame is the students who made All-State or what not. What happened after that? I know of plenty of "natural" players that inhabited the All-State Jazz bands when I was in high school, that really did not continue growing as a player. Where can I see Jeff's students playing regurlarly? Not in a college band but on a working, professional level.
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LFRoberts5
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask Caruso to demostrate his teachings on the trumpet. Not a chance. The best players are usually not the best teachers and vice versa. Ask Maynard to explain his chops. Can't do it. Ask Doc S. to explain his chops. Nothing. Bill Chase could not explain how he played, nor Louis Armstrong. Shall I continue?
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Horn of Praise
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloyd is right,

Someone "born" with a gift doesn't necessarily understand "how" they do it, because they have "always" been able to do it. So...they don't necessarily know "how" to teach others.

You don't have to be Maynard, Doc, or Bill to teach.

Be well.
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West-Coast-Horns
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The interesting fact with the msucians named just then was that none of them put out method books, or documented teachings of theirs. I think we all have found out through the grapevine what these players practiced though. Perhaps we are forgetting about Bobby Shew, or Wayne Bergeron, or Gary Grant, that are excellent players, but fine teachers as well. Not only do they teach about the trumpet, but the real world in which the business applies. As to my first question, can I see any of Jeff's "Students" playing somewhere regurlarly? I read that claude gordon, would not consider someone a student until after they took for 3-4 years, now are there students like this taking from jeff that will agree to using his system firmly? The problem with this is accountability, and is this case I feel there in none.
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oj
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

West-Coast-Horns,

Maurice Andre could not help his own trumpet playing son (who had chop problems), but when Maurice realised this, he brought him to see Jimmy Stamp. This was in the late 1970 when Stamp gave a clinic in Switzerland.

Who told me this story?

J. P. Mathez - who organised the Stamp clinic and also published the Stamp book. But I also got it from a trumpetplayer who showed me photos (taken at that clinic) of himself, Stamp and Andre together.

Ok, you will perhaps say - this does not prove anything, but at least it show us that a great artist not always can help students with chop problems.

You are questioning Jeff's credibility - but perhaps you could give us your own background, at least tell us your name?
I also would like to know how long you have worked with the B.E. book?

Ole
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histrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply Michael. I wish you well with your continuing development .
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Fast Freddy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really understand this questioning of credentials. It's not like we're asking Mr. Smiley to build a 5 mile long suspension bridge or anything.... then I'd want to see his degrees.
But where is the problem in this scenario? I've been reading this forum (BE) for the last few days, trying to understand what Jeff teaches so as to learn a little myself (it's a novel concept). Nothing taken away from Jeff, and he'll probably tell you the same, but what he teaches is not anything new (surprise). It's just something that very few have taken the time to explain in great detail and my applause go out to Mr. Smiley for doing so!

If he helps one person play more efficiently then he has been successful. If a person takes up his teachings and learns to help others then he again, has been successful. If you dedicate your time to his method and find that you benefited nothing from the experience then so be it. I personally have never found a person, book, paper, lesson, that I couldn't learn something from. An open mind is a wonderful thing indeed.

Take care.
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histrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-11-22 15:25, Fast Freddy wrote:

If you dedicate your time to his method and find that you benefited nothing from the experience then so be it. I personally have never found a person, book, paper, lesson, that I couldn't learn something from. An open mind is a wonderful thing indeed.

Take care.


Then so be it? This is one of those rare times that I find myself at a loss for words...........and that's a good thing.
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Fast Freddy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I'll make one attempt at clarification, whether that works or not.... "then so be it".

"Then so be it".... not to be taken out of context but my meaning there is simple. Some people will "try" things only to conclude that they don't work for them. Happens all the time. Difficulty here lies in the level of dedication and/or a lack of a teacher who can work one on one towards the goal. So, will it work for everyone? A little ambiguous isn't it.

My point, if you made it to the next sentence of that paragraph was that you should always take something from your experience. It's the little pieces that makes us a whole as individuals/musicians.

Any problems now?
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histrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know we are not going to agree on this, so be it. "So be it " speaks volumes. The phrase "So be it" could be taken to mean "Big Deal, so what, suck it up and move on". An aspiring athlete with a bright future uses warm up and stretching techniques recommended to him by a trainer prior to competition. While practicing the techniques he sustains an injury that sidelines him for the season. He informs the trainer of his injury and all the trainer can say is so be it. If you have not already bought the book and cd I suggest you go ahead and take the plunge, if you suffer some down time because of it, so be it.
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Fast Freddy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't help but laugh a little at this whole conversation.

When I was in college I remember my english professor preaching, "Context is everything!".

Bottom line, the comment was meant to be derogatory, as I don't believe West Coast would get anything out of BE. Why? Because his mental approach to BE would not be conducive to learning it, as his comments here have suggested. I never have been good at sugar coating things.

Take care.
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West-Coast-Horns
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to my background, I play professionally in Dallas, and if anyone wants to come out, I'd be more than happy to share! I know all about BE, I also know the prodigy student "Micah" very well actually and have for some time, he will attest to not using Jeff's sytem, in fact he told me this just recently. I will say that he said some of the stuff he tryed to show him did have some good and that it was very insightful and has helped him in some ways. I belive that too many players read embouchure this and embouchure that, when you should just be getting your ass into a practice room, and working the kinks out of what God naturally gave you as an embouchure. Personally I've never been one to look at embouchure stuff, because I did do that for about 4 years, gathering all the info I can, and it wasn't until I put all that junk away and practiced more instead doing analysis of my face everyday that improvement was actually made. So, bust my chops if you will, but my views, belive me, are not uncanny.
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jgadvert
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey West Coast:

Your questioning of Jeffs playing credentials is a fair enough question. I'll let him address that.

I spent many years "just practicing" very standard professianlly prescribed materials and not really making much progress(maintenence yes..but not much progress). It's when I learned to practice smart..that I started to make headway.

BE is smart practice material/information and helps me to accomplish much more in less time.
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HJ
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could not agree more with BE being smart practice. I was a so called 'natural' till teachers (and of course myself) were attemting to make it even better. I practiced until I almost dropped dead, four, five, six hours and nobody told me what to do in this practice time but just 'practice', 'blow', 'make music', DUH....

I practiced about two to three hours a day, one day off per ten days, for the last two or so years, BE being an important part, and I improved more than the last fifteen years. So, yeah, BE is smart practice

Bert
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plp
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have lost the point of this entire thread. Jeff makes it quite clear in both his opening thread, and in his book, that he draws from many sources and has a lot in common with other techniques. While I don't consider myself a proponent of any one technique, I have found Jeff's book very helpful and have had some success with his roll in roll out excercises. His statement that everyone can improve from his approach is factual, although it may only be as affirmation of what that player is already doing right. As to the Micah thread, Jeff stated in another thread that he does not claim any credit for this exceptional young man's ability, nor is this young man a proponent of the BE method.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing like a little negativity to get a thread to take off!

West Coast,

With each post, it's increasingly clear - to everyone, I think - that you are just another guy with an axe to grind. You initially said, "I am sort of interested in the book."

Now you say, "I know all about BE."

Right.

You evidently don't care about how many players this has helped. The fact is, somehow, I don't fit into your mold of what a teacher "should be," or what I say doesn't jibe with your idea how "trumpet should be taught," or I don't have enough students devoting their lives to the trumpet to suit your tastes.

Attitudes like yours are a dime a dozen. You can't argue with the success that players around the world have experienced using BE, so you chose to ignore what they are saying, or find them to be unqualified to be saying it. Instead, you attempt to attack my playing ability, or the abilities or professionalism of my private students - anything to somehow validate your feeling that I am some sort of fraud. Anything, that is, but question the specifics of the BE method, which I assume that you actually know very little about.

BE has been available a little more than two years. Enough said.

It's sad that you drag Micah into this as some sort of "proof." We have been friends for many years. As several people have already stated, I have never claimed or inferred that Micah was an example of the BE development system. I think that he would be unhappy to find out that you are using him in this manner.

It's always interesting to me to find out where a person is REALLY coming from. From the very beginning, I've been upfront about who I am and what my intent is. You, on the other hand, have been deceptive, and have chosen to be anonymous. As you said, "The problem with this is accountability, and is this case I feel there is none." I think that you need to apply those words to yourself.

Regarding the specifics of your belief system, I will soon start a new thread which will address every single issue that you brought up. However, you won't like my answers! I don't think like you do, approach the horn like you do, or share your beliefs.

So, you can keep arguing your points if you want. Not sure if any good will ever come from it (other than attracting a big audience to this thread looking for a train wreck), but you never know!

Jeff Smiley
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