• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions


Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Jerome Callet
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions Reply with quote

Hi,

I've started using the TCE approach a little over two weeks ago and already see great results (Here is a short demo of my playing two week ago). I've read a lot through old threads here and picked up many interesting/helpful ideas. Thanks for that!

However, since I am doing the transition independently (without any teaching), I thought it would be nice to actively share/discuss my current experiences/struggles.
I've been using anchor tonguing (behind bottom teeth) for several years now and thus already had a relatively good range. However, since I recently started playing with TCE, I need much less effort and am getting a setup that is consistent throughout all registers.

However, there are a few things that are unclear to me despite my extensive research on the subject:

-Does the tongue thickness (and/or pressure against the lower lip) change with register (i.e. does it need to be very thick for low notes or am I wasting tongue strength)?

-I currently use a no-name 7C mouthpiece and am reluctant to go shallower (which is often encouraged with TCE as I understand) because I do like a darker sound. Is a dark sound entirely inconsistent with the goals of TCE, i.e. am I hurting my progress by sticking to that sound ideal?

-Is it possible to do too much spit buzzing (or TCE playing), especially in the beginning phase, and thus getting a stiff (tired) tongue the next day? How fast does the tongue muscle really recover? How fast can one strengthen it by being diligent?

-I've been able to do lip trills very well with traditional tongue arch, but now I feel I am still lacking tongue strength to perform them. How should one approach lip trills? I feel it's a rather crucial step to mastering TCE..


I am thankful for answers to the posed questions or any other helpful remarks/impulses. I would of course also be glad to get any feedback on the short video above, as many TCE practitioners seem quite skilled w.r.t. identifying incorrect playing habits based on sound.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After watching your YouTube video, I have to ask:

Why do you want to change anything?

You sound relaxed, have a nice set up, and play well to high G. What is it from Callet's method you are hoping to gain?

[......] try first just articulating through your teeth, striking the inside of your bottom lip instead of behind your teeth.

And see what progress that might yield if any. If you find that sound and feel successful try keeping your tongue in that forward position all the time, and you're 90% of the way to playing with TCE from what I've read and experimented with.

Add a wide tongue, so the air is more focused inside your mouth, anchor your tongue with the tip either slightly behind or in front of the bottom row of teeth ( like Gordon's modified K tongue) and create a curl with the tongue so the mid tongue is in contact with the top row of teeth as well, and in contact with the lips.

I play naturally with this set up around high C and above as I've always articulated through my teeth. Making the tongue wide helps with compression/focusing the air inside the mouth. And playing with an open jaw helps force the tongue forward.

Edited by Moderators - inappropriate remarks for this forum deleted. Remember, this forum is reserved for the elucidation of Jerome Callets's teachings, not to advocate for others.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for the reply, Benge.nut! I think I should have made clearer that I did already use the TCE setup in the video, although I could play to high G before too (with more effort and less consistency though).

Very similar to what you describe, I initially tried to move the tongue tip to the lower lip which worked after I figured out that I had to open my teeth more. But now I feel that, especially when I practice quietly, it is beneficial to let the curled tongue part touch the upper teeth as well as slightly caress the upper lip when sustaining a note.

I am not sure how extreme I'll end up applying TCE in the long run, but I think that I should try the extreme first, in order to find my sweet spot. For instance, I played my first gig with this setting yesterday and was positively surprised by my increase in range/endurance. However, I still had to overblow occasionally to get a full lead sound (maybe I shouldn't have had to though?).

So, I do feel that this is a very promising direction for me. For now, I just want to make sure I eliminate the ambiguity as much as possible that arises from my autodidactic approach.

I take it then that you do deviate from the TCE setup below high C? Were you not satisfied with the sound or why did you not end up using it throughout all registers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower or mid register. It starts for me around high C and above. For me, I could never get a pleasing sound in the lower register with all that compression.

But I do mostly articulate through my teeth always.

Biggest trick for me was learning to play in the upper register with my bottom lip up and over my top teeth. That was the magic bullet for me. That really compresses the air inside my mouth, and explodes as it exits. This gave me so much more strength and helped me with a break I've had around G or G# above high C. Eventually adding about a fourth to my playable range.

Bottom lip over top teeth, relaxed corners, and chin bunching upwards to support lower lip and add lip to lip compression. Chops end up in a frown shape.

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting post! You do keep the tongue tip anchored at the top of the lower lip in the lower register though, right?

I've read that idea of "bottom lip over top front teeth" before, but it seems so counterintuitive. I do pull the lower lip up when setting the chops, but not that much (I think at least).

Using the chin muscle is surely a very important part of this approach as it prevents the lips from getting blown apart (without using the obicularis oris).
Do you feel that the chin activity is proportional to how loud you want to play? I sometimes notice that when I play loud a lot, I tend to bunch my chin too much and thus lose control when trying to play quietly.
I am still a bit unsure whether I should just "think relaxed chin" or deliberately control it depending on register/dynamic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, in the lower register my tongue floats around, and only contacts the lips when articulating.

I think of a "F" syllable while keeping my lips closed and connected, when trying to get my bottom lip up and over the top teeth. The top teeth just create another obstruction for the air to get around before leaving your mouth and I think adds a lot of compression inside my mouth, creating a faster, more compact and powerful airstream leaving my mouth.

And this ALL means I use WAY less air than ever.

Definitely when I play louder, my chin bunches up more to support my bottom lip. Relaxing the corners helps a lot to make this happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your detailed answer, Benge.nut!

If anyone has any answers to the specific questions in my opening post, I'd of course appreciate further replies!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions Reply with quote

Justus wrote:


I am thankful for answers to the posed questions or any other helpful remarks/impulses.


Hi! This is of interest to me because I pursued Jerry's teachings for quite a long time, and learned a lot about my own playing from it. Do bear in mind that Jerry's teaching has changed a lot since I've followed it, as he continuously develops new stuff. So my take on things may no longer be current, or correct per what Jerry's doing now.

Even so, some of the basics pertain, and I did get those under my belt. I did NOT get positive results in 2 weeks, except for some aspects of my playing, and it was definitely not something I could've performed on after 2 weeks. Too many weak spots. I think a very key component of you having more early success than I did is how much you spit buzz. I won't say it's impossible to overdo it, but developing any muscle will create some stiffness, for a spell. "Supple" is a really useful word to describe how we want our tongue to perform; not just for TCE (is Jerry using that term again? Last I knew it was MSC) but for all trumpet players. The tongue plays a larger role following Jerry's system, so tongue suppleness is even more important to be at our best.

A good approach might be to look at your performance schedule, and build strength when you can, and prioritize suppleness so you're in top form on stage. Hopefully you'll get past the need to build tongue strength soon, but it's pretty unlikely for anyone to do that in 2 weeks.

The tongue thickness at the bottom of the register can be very hard to gauge, but I remember's Jerry's instructions as being to feel the wedge all the way across the mouth. Once I took that literally, meaning contact / compression with all the inner lip surface, things started happening for me.

Your sound model is of course a personal choice, and I think Jerry has allowed for more deviation there than he used to. Reading between the lines, I think this is part of why he and Bahb Civiletti parted ways; Bahb just wanted a different sound. One of the things that Jerry is very right about is that what we think of as sounding good, on our side of the bell, may be the opposite of what will sound good out front, and especially at the back of a big hall. Re-training our ears to compensate for this phenomena may be a life long need? With that much, I'm speaking about how we play whatever gear we're on.

TCE should help you to be able to play any mpc., but there are some significant TCE benefits to practicing on a very shallow one. It trains your embouchure, and I'd almost bet money that much has not changed per Jerry's teaching.

Lip trills may be about strength for you right now, but like so many things in life, the better our technique the less strength is required. Lip trills might help you develop tongue suppleness, but Jerry might hear you play and instantly know of something that would help you more. Even over the phone!

If Jerry still offers a free phone lesson, you should do it, ASAP. Really. And Jerry will be encouraged to encounter a student who met so much success in 2 weeks. Congrats!

Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trumpetplanet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 543
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a big topic that I'm happy to help with. I started out like you just reading on here, and getting hold of Jerry's books/DVDs. After a short time I did take some lessons and they made a massive difference. I genuinely believe there are things that you cannot understand until you do it right.

One of those things you mention is sound concept. Please do yourself a favour and forget the words "bright" and "dark". They're actually pretty meaningless and when you think about it have much more to do with pitch and the way that sounds interact that your individual sound. Instead I encourage you to thing about these two opposing pairs:
1) Spread vs Focused. Focused is better.
2) Dull vs Resonant. Resonant is better.

If you aim for a focused, resonant sound with good core and solid articulation then the other terms become irrelevant.

On the subject or articulation - in your video you basically don't have any... That's an attempt at constructive criticism, not an insult.

A primary job of the tongue is to stop the air between each note. The purpose of that is to allow the air pressure to build in your mouth before you release it for the next tone. TCE or not I believe this to be a fundamental concept that most all players ignore and in many cases deny. It is how Arban described the use of the tongue.

For now I'm going to leave this post and let you respond, but please take a look at my blog (trumpetpla.net/blog) and think about what I've said here.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
trumpetplanet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 543
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
in the lower register my tongue floats around, and only contacts the lips when articulating.


This really is not a description of TCE. You may have mentioned that yourself already but I wanted to re-iterate incase the OP is following what you say and thinking that it will help.

A primary purpose of the anchored tongue against the lips to the stability of the embouchure and to prevent "duoa" type attacks. This stability is very important for having a centered sound. What you describe here will not help this problem at all.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
trumpetplanet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 543
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:

Your sound model is of course a personal choice, and I think Jerry has allowed for more deviation there than he used to. Reading between the lines, I think this is part of why he and Bahb Civiletti parted ways; Bahb just wanted a different sound. One of the things that Jerry is very right about is that what we think of as sounding good, on our side of the bell, may be the opposite of what will sound good out front, and especially at the back of a big hall. Re-training our ears to compensate for this phenomena may be a life long need? With that much, I'm speaking about how we play whatever gear we're on.


This may well be true, but Bahb also told me that they parted ways because Jerry refused to collaborate on a beginner's method book for TCE. Jerry was adamant that it wasn't necessary, but the numbers of people who try and fail at Superchops suggests otherwise... I've got most of Jerry's books and don't think they're sufficient to learn the technique from. That's fine while JC and and others are available to teach. But it seems that longer term TCE will continue to be a secret for those who figure it out, rather than widespread knowledge.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
On the subject or articulation - in your video you basically don't have any... That's an attempt at constructive criticism, not an insult.

A primary job of the tongue is to stop the air between each note. The purpose of that is to allow the air pressure to build in your mouth before you release it for the next tone. TCE or not I believe this to be a fundamental concept that most all players ignore and in many cases deny. It is how Arban described the use of the tongue.


Thanks so much for your very helpful answer, trumpetplanet! I feel that the less air I use (which is a good thing to do) the more I have to concentrate on pressing the tongue against the lips. When I play very loud (use more air), my tongue tip is automatically pressed against the lower lip more, giving a clearer attack. Especially in the low register I am definitely doing this far too little though because, as benge.nut pointed out, not that much compression is needed.

When practicing attacks, I always focus on getting a satisfactory sound. Do you think I might have to go beyond that (do much harder attacks) initially to develop strength and good articulation?

Do you feel that the tongue should be pressed hard enough against the lips that it feels rather tense or should it still be relaxed (maybe a matter of strength as well)? Sometimes I feel that when I press the tongue too much against the lips, other parts of my face (involuntarily) get tense too.

Also, would you agree that the articulation in the video gets a bit better as I ascend? At least for the high G I can hear a "pop" at the end that I thought was correct?

Have been on your website and youtube channel before. Very interesting stuff!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
in the lower register my tongue floats around, and only contacts the lips when articulating.


This really is not a description of TCE. You may have mentioned that yourself already but I wanted to re-iterate incase the OP is following what you say and thinking that it will help.

A primary purpose of the anchored tongue against the lips to the stability of the embouchure and to prevent "duoa" type attacks. This stability is very important for having a centered sound. What you describe here will not help this problem at all.


Yeah, I don't play with the TCE doctrine at all times. I find it overkill in the lower register. But that's just me. I do as I said articulate still through my teeth, as I always have in the lower register but having such a compact wedge and forward tongug, needed to create intense compression and focus, is really unnecessary for my needs. Your experiences may differ.

I've worked with Jerry for years and known him since the early 90s. I probably have a better understanding of what is involved in this current set up than many others, and have had real success from it. But I also employ much of his teachings from his older Trumpet Yoga and Superchops teaching days.

And nothing NOTHING in Jerry Callet's teachings are ever finite or set in stone. He changes ideas and theories all the time, and nothing is ever perfected. The role of the bottom lip from his Yoga/Superchops days are what really turned on a lightbulb in my head and changed my playing and expanded my range more than anything any teacher has ever shown me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just made a short video of how I practice the spit buzz and set the embouchure. Would be very grateful for any feedback and/or suggestions.

As one can see, at least without the trumpet, the aperture is still below the upper teeth (unlike what Benge.nut described for himself) although it likely does move up slightly from there as I ascend.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Justus
Regular Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Location: UK/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noticed something important: The spit buzz is much cleaner/easier when I in fact allow the tip to be slightly behind the cutting edge of the lower teeth. I recently had been trying to put it on top of the cutting edge before.

Last edited by Justus on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post deleted by Moderators

The disemmination of copyrighted material is expressly against the TH user agreement.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember, never whoo attack. There are details that Jerry fine tunes as he learns more, as well as ones he shapes for each individual. But the primary rules are always in effect. None is more important than the spit buzz. Correct that in your low and mid registers and the sound and pitch down there will get much better quickly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Yoga book, photo 10 Jerry shows the bottom lip up and OVER the top teeth

For me, this was the biggest thing that really changed my playing and eventually addd about a fourth to my range and much more volume and endurance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Post deleted by Moderators

The disemmination of copyrighted material is expressly against the TH user agreement.


Oh...ok. I thought since they were outdated books no longer in print this wouldn't be an issue? And I was just trying to help another trumpet player and maybe understand how I have progressed over the years with some of Jerry Callet's older teachings.

I didn't realize they were topics not allowed to discuss.

No disrespect nor any malice was intended. And I'll stay away from this side of the Trumpet Herald forum (which seems to be awful quiet these days...makes one wonder why??)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Moderators
TH Moderator Group


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 3896

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Respectful discussion of Jerome Callet's teaching is always allowed and encouraged. Dissemination of copyrighted material is not allowed, for both legal and ethical reasons.

To obtain Master Superchops contact Jerome Callet
To obtain Trumpet Secrets contact Bahb Civiletti
To obtain Trumpet Yoga contact Charles Colin Publishing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Jerome Callet All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group