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My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions


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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower....

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture


Yeah the last paragraph everyone can think about and will be effective throughout almost every technique I have seen. It will make your tone fuller no matter the level, it will give you more compression at higher levels and you will not waste your power by puffing the cheeks , so no down sides. No one taught me this and it is actually the first time I have heard it said in such a. Effective manner. You are just making a more effective seal to vary compression. I got lucky when just trying to see what flattening the tongue sounded like. 1st time I went for hi c and got hi g a light bulb went off. I'm sure there's more but this is a keeper even for someone who thinks TCE is a trick only to be used when nothing else will work.
Rod
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:


NOBODY has ever described a proper definition on how to double tongue with such a forward compressed tongue and "wedge"

The "cough" direction makes no sense to me. There is no evidence it's even a possibility. Again, no recording, no video, no pro player saying he plays this way, or multiple tongues while using any kind of MSC/TCE

Like I said earlier, having so much compression inside your mouth while playing in the lower register, seems like such overkill. My tongue gets wider and more forward around high C and above....where the compression makes sense. But in low and mid register, it's unnecessary to me and my articulation are too hard and "poppy" when I don't need or want that sound.

And multiple articulations I do not believe are possible with that tongue shape. The "cough articulation" is a mystery and I think as probable as the sightings of Bigfoot or space aliens.

I've asked Jerry to demonstrate it..never happened. I've asked other self appointed MSC specialists to make a tape or a vid showing how it works, and never got a response.


I can tell you how to double tongue with TCE. I do it every day.
When you learn TCE from Bahb Civiletti a large part of his teaching is playing exercises using "The five articulations", one of which is a 'gu' attack. Alternating between this and spit attack is how you do the double tongue.

I am more than happy to make a video on this topic so that you can see and hear what I do, but it's not going to be for a few days as I'm quite busy.

As for your opinion about compression being overkill in the low register - I just think this is a misunderstanding. It's perfectly possible to play with less compression in the middle and low registers without allowing the tongue to recede. The point of keeping the tongue forward is to maintain pitch centre.
I've made a video in which I demonstrate softer playing with TCE. You can find on youtube; I think it's titled "Playing easy with TCE"

Most people's problem with playing in this way is that they want everything to be perfect from the beginning. It's my opinion that with most techniques a player starts out weak and then hopes to be strong. When switching to TCE it's the other way around. It just takes a bit of commitment, as evidenced by people like myself, Bahb and others.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower....

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture


Yeah the last paragraph everyone can think about and will be effective throughout almost every technique I have seen. It will make your tone fuller no matter the level, it will give you more compression at higher levels and you will not waste your power by puffing the cheeks , so no down sides. No one taught me this and it is actually the first time I have heard it said in such a. Effective manner. You are just making a more effective seal to vary compression. I got lucky when just trying to see what flattening the tongue sounded like. 1st time I went for hi c and got hi g a light bulb went off. I'm sure there's more but this is a keeper even for someone who thinks TCE is a trick only to be used when nothing else will work.
Rod


Bits and pieces of stuff I've heard over the years so,times doesn't resonate in my head until years later.

When I do this with my tongue I hardly need any wind power to get a huge, full, focused sound. And in the lower register my tongue is wide but not as forward, although I do articulate through my teeth. And I find that only minimal tongue movement is needed to articulate.

I do use syllables of sorts. Multiple tongue stuff is more of a "thuck-ka-thuck-ka" or "thick-ka-thick-ka-thick-ka" instead of "tu-ku-tu-ku" and the "th" is because I articulate through my teeth.

But back to wide tongue and channeling air. I think of my tongue as if it were like putting my thumb in front of the stream of water coming out of a garden hose. The water sprays faster, further and more powerful the more your thumb covers the opening right??

Want a little more compression? Raise your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth by bunching or pushing up with your chin, getting more lip to lip compression. It's really a minimal movement to get your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth, but the results are major. The higher I play, the more my bottom lip pushes up against my top lip and raises higher over my top row of teeth.

Now the air is channeled with your wide tongue covering your whole top row of teeth, and further the air has the obstacle of your bottom lip in order to escape. More air compression. Faster more powerful air stream like the water leaving the garden hose. These two things are what got me passed my wall of high F-G to learning how to play and controlling my playable range up to double Cs and Ds. I don't use that range often, but know what to do to play those notes now.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:


NOBODY has ever described a proper definition on how to double tongue with such a forward compressed tongue and "wedge"

The "cough" direction makes no sense to me. There is no evidence it's even a possibility. Again, no recording, no video, no pro player saying he plays this way, or multiple tongues while using any kind of MSC/TCE

Like I said earlier, having so much compression inside your mouth while playing in the lower register, seems like such overkill. My tongue gets wider and more forward around high C and above....where the compression makes sense. But in low and mid register, it's unnecessary to me and my articulation are too hard and "poppy" when I don't need or want that sound.

And multiple articulations I do not believe are possible with that tongue shape. The "cough articulation" is a mystery and I think as probable as the sightings of Bigfoot or space aliens.

I've asked Jerry to demonstrate it..never happened. I've asked other self appointed MSC specialists to make a tape or a vid showing how it works, and never got a response.


I can tell you how to double tongue with TCE. I do it every day.
When you learn TCE from Bahb Civiletti a large part of his teaching is playing exercises using "The five articulations", one of which is a 'gu' attack. Alternating between this and spit attack is how you do the double tongue.

I am more than happy to make a video on this topic so that you can see and hear what I do, but it's not going to be for a few days as I'm quite busy.

As for your opinion about compression being overkill in the low register - I just think this is a misunderstanding. It's perfectly possible to play with less compression in the middle and low registers without allowing the tongue to recede. The point of keeping the tongue forward is to maintain pitch centre.
I've made a video in which I demonstrate softer playing with TCE. You can find on youtube; I think it's titled "Playing easy with TCE"

Most people's problem with playing in this way is that they want everything to be perfect from the beginning. It's my opinion that with most techniques a player starts out weak and then hopes to be strong. When switching to TCE it's the other way around. It just takes a bit of commitment, as evidenced by people like myself, Bahb and others.


Just checked out your vids. Great sound and playing man! Excellent explanations of WHAT you are doing as well.

I really enjoyed hearing you play the Telemann. What horn is that with the key change valve? Sounds great. Nice triple F you snuck in at the end btw.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing:

In trumpetplanet's Teleman vid. Check out his seating position and posture. Look how relaxed he is, legs crossed totally relaxed. His breathing is no more exaggerated than when one is having a conversation.

This bolsters my thinking that all that talk of huge gulps of air, wedge breathing, tanking up, raised chest, breathing from diaphragm, etc....wasted energy. If what's going on INSIDE your mouth is controlling the air, then less air is needed to get great results.

It's totally opposite from what we are taught and what our body is telling us to do. Less is more, and the battle is an internal fight of our own minds to think we need huge gulps of air, more pressure and more energy to get a big beautiful sound.

Well done buddy!!
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Benge.nut"]
Rod Haney wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower....

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture


Yeah the last paragraph everyone can think about and will be effective throughout almost every technique I have seen. It will make your tone fuller no matter the level, it will give you more compression at higher levels and you will not waste your power by puffing the cheeks , so no down sides. No one taught me this and it is actually the first time I have heard it said in such a. Effective manner. You are just making a more effective seal to vary compression. I got lucky when just trying to see what flattening the tongue sounded like. 1st time I went for hi c and got hi g a light bulb went off. I'm sure there's more but this is a keeper even for someone who thinks TCE is a trick only to be used when nothing else will work.
Rod[/quote

But back to wide tongue and channeling air. I think of my tongue as if it were like putting my thumb in front of the stream of water coming out of a garden hose. The water sprays faster, further and more powerful the more your thumb covers the opening right??

Want a little more compression? Raise your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth by bunching or pushing up with your chin, getting more lip to lip compression. It's really a minimal movement to get your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth, but the results are major. The higher I play, the more my bottom lip pushes up against my top lip and raises higher over my top row of .....


Not going along with any of that. I heard Jerry say it was a technique he developed because he could not do higher notes in the "prescribed manner". I can (within normal range) so I'm not going there and i said I thought it was a trick. I listen to everything and take whatever works, and tongue/teeth works no matter what you do in front with teeth in front, over or between the lips. I was just saying whether you think TCE is a cult or the best thing since sliced bread, that the wide tongue/seal is a good takeaway and worth trying.
Rod
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, do what you like and try what you like. I was just sharing what worked for me. And Jerry Callet hardly "invented" any of this. That's like saying Columbus "discovered" the New World.

Both have always been there. But Jerry just was able to put into words what a lot of people do naturally and have done well before Jerrys "method" was being taught.

Hardly a trick, more just a different way of playing. When I hear a player that sounds great to my ears, I always pick his brain on what he's doing, how he tongues, where his tongue strikes and what how his chops work. Some guys I've learned from, some not.

Same with teachers. I've studied with lots of known cats and lots of unknown. Taken countless one-off lessons with guys I was exceptionally impressed with just to pick their brains.

Take the good, leave the rest. But there is no trick chop setting, just like their is no trick or cheat mouthpiece. Either you can make it work, or you can't, and their are countless paths to get to the same end result of great trumpeting.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice to see some more discussion in this thread!

@trumpetplanet: An explanatory video about double tonguing would be awesome!
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Well, do what you like and try what you like. I was just sharing what worked for me. ...
Take the good, leave the rest. But there is no trick chop setting, just like their is no trick or cheat mouthpiece. Either you can make it work, or you can't, and their are countless paths to get to the same end result of great trumpeting.


Well stated again. Just because I don't see an advantage doesn't mean others can't benefit. I haven't read of anyone's teachings that I buy 100% or anywhere close (but that may be why no one takes lessons from me among myriad reasons). I spend a lot of time thinking about what is going on when things go right or wrong as I play (Adams followers cringe) and try lots of things. Many things that others do I simply can't do yet, sometimes we have same results with 2 different methods, etc. ad infinitim. Point is there are good methods everywhere but an experimental nature and open mind are required to find what works. I encourage the young man to try it all but use your developing judgement to decide what you want to sound like. I like Benge dude tend to gravitate to people who match the sound picture I want. Make sure the techniques you study bring the sound you want to play.
I like Hakan Hardenberger's method of play and try to be totally without movement but I don't like his choice of music. This is my choice and is why the TCE is so strange to me, but the original comment I made regarded the tongue/upper teeth seal is applicable to any technique I have been exposed to and that's all I was trying to say.
Peace
Rod
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Just checked out your vids. Great sound and playing man! Excellent explanations of WHAT you are doing as well.

I really enjoyed hearing you play the Telemann. What horn is that with the key change valve? Sounds great. Nice triple F you snuck in at the end btw.


The trumpet is an old Boosey & Co Class A 'prototype'

Benge.nut wrote:
One more thing:

In trumpetplanet's Teleman vid. Check out his seating position and posture. Look how relaxed he is, legs crossed totally relaxed. His breathing is no more exaggerated than when one is having a conversation.

This bolsters my thinking that all that talk of huge gulps of air, wedge breathing, tanking up, raised chest, breathing from diaphragm, etc....wasted energy. If what's going on INSIDE your mouth is controlling the air, then less air is needed to get great results.

It's totally opposite from what we are taught and what our body is telling us to do. Less is more, and the battle is an internal fight of our own minds to think we need huge gulps of air, more pressure and more energy to get a big beautiful sound.

Well done buddy!!


Thank you very much for your observations and compliments!
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/


Last edited by trumpetplanet on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Justus,

I think it's great that you're experimenting intelligently and working to improve your playing (Not that my opinion means much). And I think many people are excited to see someone who has implemented TCE very quickly and who is playing touching double Es now.

I do want to give some context to this conversation though, as I did have a look through your youtube channel and note there is a video of you playing a respectable Double C from 2 years ago. I can also see that you're reasonably young (?) and you have musical abilities beyond high note playing and can play Piano (and drums?).

You're a talented young musician and your ordinary playing appears to be working well. My guess is that you're experimenting with TCE to gain... More range, more power or more endurance?

So just to give some more context, I'd be interested to know how you've previously worked on to improving these areas?
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not motivation enough to simply be a better player, or for playing to be easier? Getting to a level that impresses people is easy. Getting to a level that people will pay you to play is also relatively easy. But to be outstanding takes something else... I was already a respected professional when I switched to TCE. Looking back to four years ago I would never chose to lose the awareness I have gained through its practice.

I think that it is the reading of statements like that which causes people to persue TCE.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the compliments, Trumpetingbynurture! Here is some context that hopefully answers your question:
Although trumpet is (and will always be) my first instrument I've tried to extend my range (piano, sax, drums, bass) of instruments in recent years. Even though I do not pursue music as a profession (I have a degree in Finance and currently study mathematics), I've always had the stamina/motivation to practice instruments for several hours a day (when I have time). Given my analytical nature, a property without which a transition to TCE is probably rather difficult, I've always liked to experiment with my embouchure. Before actively starting to post here, I've been reading and posting in the German Trompetenforum, picking up many ideas/concepts that have improved my playing by a lot.
However, TCE is really the first "method" whose instructions I followed (or at least try to ) throughout for a longer period. Before, my experimentations were very unideological and open-minded (not the worst mind-set to start with when trying to figure things out probably) and just consisted of trying as much as possible.

About the double tonguing: I've made some progress on this front. I can simulate a spit buzz attack with the cough now so that there is little difference in sound. I can get a sound with the cough on the trumpet too, but the articulation is neither very poppy nor clean yet. Also, if I double or triple tongue, the result it is still a lot slower than my single tonguing. The learning curve seems to be just very different compared to the traditional ta-ka articulation.
I think that, even though it is, as trumpetplanet hopefully will demonstrate, surely possible to properly multiple-tongue with TCE, it is a weak spot of the system. It takes a while to learn and also requires a lot of tongue strength and since tongue strength determines endurance in TCE, it is much more of an endurance killer compared to conventional playing. Since I am mainly a jazz player, I am not really bothered by that though.
On the positive side, I can really feel how practicing multiple tonguing gives the tongue a workout and thus is a great tool to build tongue strength in the long run. Furthermore, I think that the cough attack is a nice way of making sure not to overblow since it feels like I am just using the air in the mouth.

I've read that some people called it a "gu"-attack. Indeed I use exactly the same throat motion that the "gu" entails, but I don't articulate with an actual "g" since I can't do that while keeping the tongue in the TCE position. I'm really looking forward to the demo though since, as a native German speaker, I think pronunciation differences might account for some of the difficulty I'm having here.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Justus, I finally got around to posting the video (I started a new thread). I am never happy with these things on first try so you'll being seeing something like the 5th version!!

As a work of caution - I would advise avoiding thinking about pronunciation at all. Think instead about creating the same mechanical action but by using different parts of the tongue.

Arban describes the tongue as acting like a valve - it is responsible for stating and stopping the air AND controlling the build up of pressure in the mouth before it is released. I often show my pupils how this works by using a bike tyre - the valve never goes away (i.e. the tongue never recedes in the mouth), it just controls the release of the air.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am making a lot of progress currently in gaining more consistency by improving my spit buzz (a crucial part of my warm up).

I also figured out that literally the only thing that sometimes still goes wrong is my habit of using a tongue arch. Around middle C I still fight that well-engrained habit. As soon as I arch the back, I need more air to produce the vibration, preventing me from maintaining the grip, the mouthpiece pressure increases somewhat and the sound becomes harsh. However, if I only slightly arch it, I blow more but, by using more tongue strength, can still keep the tongue roughly in the TCE position. That actually makes it quite dangerous because you might not immediately notice when it creeps back into your playing.

Unfortunately, identifying a problem doesn't necessarily solve it immediately, especially when it's about a muscle as hard to control as the tongue.

Thus my question: Has anybody found a way of thinking during playing that makes sure the back of the tongue doesn't arch? How did you overcome that habit?
I've read that Kyle has had problems with this as well in the past and I am sure it is a very common fallacy when implementing TCE? However, I couldn't find many threads here about it (and how to prevent it is, to my knowledge, not satisfactorily addressed in Jerry's books).

BTW: When I do manage to not use tongue arch, I like my TCE sound in the low and middle register. The attacks are cleaner than ever before and the sound is extremely resonant. The level of brightness is okay too since I use a regular 7C cup (with a relatively small throat though).
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Justus,

My recommendation is to focus on repeated attacks when practising music. Subdivide everything up into semiquavers and just make sure you're getting a clear ping on every note.

The reason that this helps is that when you play repeated staccato notes your chops need to reset the grip after every note. It's just a matter of building that habit.

When you're getting on well with this then practise the same thing using a 'gu' attack - think of the attack happening further back in the mouth, but the tongue must maintain the forward position. This will serve to strengthen the tongue in place.

Another thing to work on would be simple harmonic slurs making sure that you're aware of the wedge/grip as you move between the different harmonics. Every note must slot in place; never slide between notes or bend the pitch off centre.
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https://neotericbrass.com/
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry says "the use of syllables are wrong".... I kinda agree and kinda not.

As I said, I really use this sort of method above the staff, but I DO articulatenthrough my teeth always.

I think of keeping my tongue in a "th" shape while playing to keep my tongue forward. Like I have a constant lisp. I use syllables like "thith" in my mind or "thit or thut"

I also think of (if possible to imagine" combining "th with a word starting with an F" shape which brings my bottom lip UP and over my top row of teeth.

Combine all this with a WIDE tongue anchored and covering the whole top row of teeth. This is what I do. Is it exactly as prescribed by Jerry or Bahb, probably not. But it works, and gets the "pop" when I need it, and I can slur easily and I get compression for upper register to double Cs and Ds.

But I STILL can not double tongue lol

Also I am confused by what the difference is between a "tongue arch and tongue curl" that is prescribed. Seems if the tongue is forward, and either behind or in front of bottom front teeth, and is raised to articulate off cutting edge of the top row of teeth...their HAS to be some kind of arch or curl.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether right or wrong I have always thought Jerry was talking about syllables such as the common "Ta, Tae, Tee, Tish" approach, which also directly relates to tongue level / arch. So in that case I would be inclined to agree. The 'gu' sound that I mention is only intended to help you concentrate on keeping the tongue forward whilst articulating with the mid/rear portion of the tongue.

Another way of seeing that this doesn't relate to tongue level / arch / syllables is that there is no striking action as part of the articulation. Movement of the tongue is minimal in that it acts only to release the pressurised air. This is probably different from what you do in the mid-low register Benge.nut?

To say that the tongue is in an arched position wouldn't be wrong, so in that I agree with you, but the difference is that you are not varying the amount of or shape of the arch as a means of controlling the pitch of the note. Doing so would require much more air, which is exactly as Justus describes his experience. It's very much the same habit I wall fall into on a gig when I first moved towards playing with the TCE. I also find that it's a much easier mistake to make on large, "open", equipment.
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https://neotericbrass.com/
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Justus
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies!

I am almost exclusively practicing attacks currently since, as you pointed out, that enables me to better control the tongue position. When it comes to slurring, I still have to figure out the right balance between chin motion and increased tongue pressure to maintain "equilibrium" (i.e. making sure the tongue doesn't move).

@Trumpetplanet: When you ascend, do you think about the tongue pressing more forward against the lips or pulling the lower lip up/in? Of course both things necessarily have to happen, but which one happens more or less automatically and which one is better to focus on when playing? Particularly for small intervals I've noticed that thinking about the chin/lower lip feels like overkill (too much motion).

Also, today I experimented a bit with my breathing. I am still used to playing with an inward motion of the abdomen as I ascend which leads me to overblow. Since it is hard to just stop doing that, I tried to concentrate on an outward motion of the abdomen instead. That surely is not a good habit in the long run, but it did prevent overblowing successfully. After I discovered that towards the end of my practicing session, I was immediately able to play and attack softly in the middle register.

However, my experience today raised a chicken-egg like question: Is it the arching of the tongue that causes me to use more air to create the vibration, or is it the use of more air that causes the back of the tongue to arch to increase resistance?

Since the outward abdominal motion I tried today improved things so quickly, I am inclined to lean towards the latter. It can happen both ways though probably.

@Benge.nut: Thanks for the hint about the F. Just tried it and it seems to be a very good thing to do when setting the embouchure for spit buzzing higher pitches.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Don't do that! Reply with quote

In regards to the lip/tongue balance I see it working like this:
Get used to the sensation of the Einsetzen/Ansetzen exercise. Essentially this is a very exaggerated version of what you do in the normal playing range. The lower lip rolls inwards and pushes against the downwards-pointing tongue. At the same time the upper lip grips from above. This interlocking of the lips creates a small and efficient aperture and a surprisingly resonant sound. Just practise the movement and be sure that your tone doesn't change from pitch to pitch.

About the breathing; this is simple: never, ever, push outwards. That is going to guarantee only one thing - ruptured hernias! You will do yourself physical harm if you carry on doing that.

You do need to pull inwards in order to compress the air as it is released. If you are concerned about the quantity of air then don't breath it in the first place! Bud Brisbois is known to have practised high phrases by breathing out first: this way you will engage your muscles in the way that you are supposed to. Once you are familiar with this sensation then you can just take small relaxed breaths that suit the length and dynamic of the musical
phrase that you are going to play.

Lynn Nicholson has a good video on YouTube about compression. The difference in our approach is what happens in the mouth, not how we breathe.
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