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My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions


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Justus
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for the warning! I had suspected that it wasn't very healthy, but not that it was dangerous.

I'll definitely focus more on changing my breathing habits. I recall that, in one of your videos, you advocated first breathing out and then taking a small breath through the nose. Although this is probably not always a practical thing to do in a playing situation, that seems like a good practicing habit for me to adopt!

Thanks again for the helpful replies! For me personally, talking with people who have gone through the same embouchure transition is extremely helpful.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I blame Maynard Ferguson's showmanship for so many people thinking we need these huge gulps of oxygen in our system to play trumpet.

Maynard would point his horn straight up and make it look like he's taking his last breath before going underwater in some abyss. And this was all for show, and everybody bought it.

Proof of that is, during a phrase or long line, he'd take that huge show biz breath at first, then during his phrase when he'd catch a quick breath, it would be a normal breath just like any other player and still play his stratospheric high notes.

Lynn Nicholson is another example of doing the same thing MF did as described above. Those over dramatic big breaths are ever all for show, or all in the necessity is all in their heads.

I don't breath any more dramatic than I do while talking, or taking a drag from a cigarette at best. Very relaxed and only what is needed. I never raise my chest or shoulders and never "sit" on air like those silly "wedge breath" guys. It's just overkill.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're using the tongue for compression the wedge breath definitely is overkill. However, if you don't play with a focused airstream reducing the vibrating surface as you ascend you will play inefficiently but probably benefit from these techniques (as I sort of did in the past).

I had already watched the compression video from Lynn Nicholsen before at some point. Isn't the amount of abdominal support he uses overkill for TCE too? I am a bit confused to what extent the abdominal support (in TCE) is correlated with volume/pitch? Is "more support" equivalent to "more air", or can it also just mean "more air pressure".
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus wrote:
If you're using the tongue for compression the wedge breath definitely is overkill. However, if you don't play with a focused airstream reducing the vibrating surface as you ascend you will play inefficiently but probably benefit from these techniques (as I sort of did in the past).

I had already watched the compression video from Lynn Nicholsen before at some point. Isn't the amount of abdominal support he uses overkill for TCE too? I am a bit confused to what extent the abdominal support (in TCE) is correlated with volume/pitch? Is "more support" equivalent to "more air", or can it also just mean "more air pressure".


I think there are many ways to skin a cat. And different ways to gain air speed/compression/pressure. I think some guys use huge air and abdominal support, and we do it inside outer mouths with our tongue

Our way is easier and more efficient and since I am lazy by nature....I use my tongue 👅
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry used to define two places that would generate compression (which I think is identical to air pressure).

The solar plexus; just pull it in

The wedge; grip more to ascend, always forward.

Double tonguing I think is also about the articulation point being farther forward. Don't forget about tongue suppleness! Beyond mere strength, this is needed. In multiple tonguing it needs to be willing to hold still at the wedge, while moving to create the ...
alternate release.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Benge.nut: Your "F" hint helped me a lot since I think my aperture was too low (I didn't bring up the lower lip enough over the bottom teeth). That also miraculously solved the overblowing issue to a large extent. When I set the chops now, the lower lips is slightly below the cutting edge of the top teeth (how high exactly it should be is surely dependent on anatomical features).

Another observation I have made: When the chin doesn't pull up enough to center a certain pitch this can, to certain extent, be compensated by mouthpiece pressure. You can even further ascend in that case (albeit with slightly impaired sound) by using both mp pressure and the chin (lower lip) to hold the grip. However, when I do that I can't descend because the mp pressure ("grip") is too high for the then lower pitches.
It's easy to not notice the increased mp pressure since it is still not more than is used in traditional methods, but definitely too much for TCE.

Conclusion: I practice ascending and (!) descending scales and when I have problems descending, it means I've used more mp pressure (than necessary to hermetically seal the aperture) to hold the grip in place.

This is something I've experienced particularly often so far in rehearsal/gig situations where I use too much mp pressure to gain security since the new mechanisms aren't engrained to a sufficient extent yet. By doing that, I of course mess up the coordination between lower lip and tongue pressure that really needs to take place. Interestingly, the extreme upper register still works in those situations, just the flexibility is very limited.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad it helped. Getting that bottom lip up is the trick!! Goes back to Callet's Yoga and Superchops stuff I incorporate with what I'm doing now.

The "F-M-Th" syllable shape is the best way I can describe what my chops are doing. "F" to bring my bottom lip up. "M" to relax my corners, and "TH" for my forward tongue. The whole time keeping the meat of my lips relaxed and fluffy.

Right or wrong, that's the how my mind's eye sees it.

Don't forget to try a wide tongue and making sure to keep an open jaw. This is the stuff that got me passed the wall of a high F or G that I had since high school and got me to play, articulate, slur etc up to and through Double Cs and Ds.

And I use way less air than ever, and really don't get tired like I used to. I just need a couple second break and reset and I'm fresh as when I started playing for the day.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
The "F-M-Th" syllable shape is the best way I can describe what my chops are doing. "F" to bring my bottom lip up. "M" to relax my corners, and "TH" for my forward tongue. The whole time keeping the meat of my lips relaxed and fluffy.


Do you keep the "ff", bottom-lip to top-teeth connection all over the range of the instrument?
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
The "F-M-Th" syllable shape is the best way I can describe what my chops are doing. "F" to bring my bottom lip up. "M" to relax my corners, and "TH" for my forward tongue. The whole time keeping the meat of my lips relaxed and fluffy.


Do you keep the "ff", bottom-lip to top-teeth connection all over the range of the instrument?


Mostly.

But since my tongue is forward mostly, and my bottom lip IS over my top teeth, but my tongue pushes my bottom lip away from the cutting edge of my top teeth so there isn't really contact with the cutting edges of my teeth. If that makes sense

And the higher I play, the more my bottom lip pushes up with the help of my chin bunching/pushing up for support.....I think is what is happening. But again, that for me was the trick for getting crazy compression/air pressure/air speed, and using very little actual air. I barely breath much at all when playing now.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
(..) the more my bottom lip pushes up (..)


I thought about this some more recently: Is it really an upward motion of the lower lip? I think there definitely is an upward motion of the chin, but the lower lip might just move inwards against the tongue and not upwards? An upward motion would also lead to lip-to-lip compression which is detrimental to TCE.
(I have the distinct feeling you might only need an actual upward motion of the lower lip if you don't use TCE in the lower/mid register but rather switch to TCE for the upper register?)

If I spit buzz in the pedal register, the lower lip is turned outwards, but it is still equally high (as far as I can tell). Maybe that is why, when you look at the chops of full-fledged TCE players like Trumpetplanet or Herb Smith, the chin doesn't appear to move much and almost looks flat (which it isn't obviously).

Yesterday I had great success when I just thought about both upper and lower lip increasing the inward pressure against the wedge as I ascended. Of course that doesn't mean that this is necessarily a physically accurate description, but (for me) definitely a good visualisation to use when playing.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom lip coming up over the teeth is more of a SuperChops thing than a TCE thing.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should probably clarify that, at least so far, I exclusively followed Jerry's book and had a phone lesson with him. I just happen to prefer the term "TCE" as it is a more factual description of the embouchure (more scientific), whereas "Superchops" just sounds like a marketing thing. To be honest, I would feel absolutely silly telling anyone I play with an embouchure called "Superchops".
Ironically, Civiletti (who I think came up with the name "TCE"?) himself made it even worse by calling his later book "Monster Chops".

I don't think this method needs sensationalist names to convince the trumpet community of its validity. On the contrary, I think such names might actually prevent some people from taking it seriously.


Last edited by Justus on Sat May 20, 2017 8:19 am; edited 4 times in total
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
The bottom lip coming up over the teeth is more of a SuperChops thing than a TCE thing.


Yeah. Like I said, I use a combination of things instead of following one dogma.

It's what works for me. I've known and learned things from Jerry since the 90s. I've also learned and taken lessons and talked with lots of other trumpeters and teachers over the years and applied all kinds of stuff to my playing.

There is no score keeper or referee with me while I'm playing, so I don't think I need to do "everything" exactly as prescribed by one method or another, especially if I'm happy with my results.

And if you've known Jerry over the years, NOTHING is forever. He is always tinkering, and trying new things and adjusting or modifying his method. What may be in a book or taught one day, can be radically changed by Jerry the very next day. And from student to student, Jerry has made all kinds of changes from how he thinks a player should utilize his chops or tongue or horn angle etc etc

If you're trying something and not getting the results you want...try something else!! But for me, the bottom lip up and over the top row of teeths cutting edge is what gives me that extra compression that gives about a half octave of more notes, and a lot more power and much less effort.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus wrote:
I should probably clarify that, at least so far, I exclusively followed Jerry's book and had a phone lesson with him. I just happen to prefer the term "TCE" as it is a more factual description of the embouchure (more scientific), whereas "Superchops" just sounds like a marketing thing. To be honest, I would feel absolutely silly telling anyone I play with an embouchure called "Superchops".
Ironically, Civiletti (who I think came of with the name "TCE"?) himself made it even worse by calling his later book "Monster Chops".

I don't think this method needs sensationalist names to convince the trumpet community of its validity. On the contrary, I think such names might actually prevent some people from taking it seriously.


To clarify, Jerry has had several systems/innovations/methods or whatever over the years.

Before TCE there was SuperChops which was, over simply, about allowing the bottom lip to sit in front of the top teeth, using the teeth to create blowing resistance. The tongue was in contact with the lower lip, channeling the air to the top lip, but it wasn't really 'controlling' anything.

Then TCE, which was quite different, which is where/when the spit buzzing setup started I think. I don't think TCE mentions anything about putting the bottom lip in front of the top teeth.

Then there was Master SuperChops which I don't really get at all from the video that is on YouTube about it, but that doesn't mean anything other than I can't give you a cliff-notes version.

So the whole lower lip pushing up in front of the top teeth is not really a part of TCE the way it was taught by Callet or Civelletti. But TrumpetPlanet will be the guy to ask about this, I only know what I read in the books, not from what they teach in lessons.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With TCE or MSC or whatever it's called now...there is no discussion or explanation on the roll of the chops, besides "gripping the tongue wedge"

Ok....

But what about corners, where are the lips "supposed" to be in relation to teeth? Centered? Above, below top teeth? There is no consensus to my knowledge.

As I said, for me in the lower register there is no need for such compression. I still articulate through my teeth, but my tongue isn't fixed in a forward position like it is above the staff. The high register I play, the more my tongue gets thicker and wider and stays more forward. Above high C I play as what is described in modern TCE teachings, coupled with my bottom lip up and over my top row of teeth.

I think if you guys are articulating through your teeth and are experimenting with TCE.....you might want to try what I'm doing as well. It's just a little more compression of the air and really has had awesome results for me!!
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry guys, I am following this conversation and have things to add, but I'm really busy this weekend. I'll add my two cents as soon as I can sit at a computer.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottom lip:
Basically I believe the function of the bottom lip is to push against the tongue, which is pushing back towards it. This is what causes the thickening of the tongue. All of this increases as you go into the higher register and relaxes as you go lower. When you factor in the top lip as well then it feels like a gripping action of the lips against the tongue.

In the notes that accompany the Master SuperChops DVD there is an image that shows the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This causes you to great the wedge by folding the tongue over between the teeth so that it can touch the lips. This is how I started out 4 years ago and it served me pretty well. if things ever start to go off track I go back to this way for a practise session or more just to get the feel and sound back. I don't, however, find it so easy to incorporate this setting into the bigger picture as for me the sensation doesn't tie into the sensation of moving from Einsetzen to Ansetzen. I also find it more difficult to feel what the bottom lip is doing.

In regards to the bottom lip going over the top teeth - I think that as we keep our corners loose then it is possible for the corners to come above the cutting edge of the top teeth but I've only ever found myself doing this when trying to play over "G-above-high-C". If you are drawing the bottom lip in over the teeth then it's pretty unlikely that you could do both.

Names:
The reason I specifically use the term TCE and not Superchops also echos Justus's reasons. If I use the word superchops then I would say "I play in the way that Jerome Callet describes in his book Superchops". I think that TCE is a derivative of Jerry's work in that after Bahb stopped having lessons with Jerry he wrote his training manual and introduced some of his own ideas. There is also only one way to set up the lips/tongue with "TCE", which is the point of understanding Bahb was at during this time. The tongue tip is anchored to the bottom lip.
Bahb still puts a lot of emphasis on the einsetzen/ansetzen exercises - something that hasn't been mentioned to me at all by Jerry.
I also see in the Balanced Embouchure as a derivative of Jerry's teaching as it uses his ideas, but not all of them, and results in a different thing... I've had pupils that were more open to BE than TCE as it seems like less change from what they were doing before. That said, if someone doesn't wish to change anything then that means they'll never make any progress. Progress by definition is change... kids eh?

FYI Monsterchops is the name Bahb gives to a device for strengthening the obicularis oris. His two books are the TCE Training Manual and TCE Power Training.
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
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Justus
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
I don't, however, find it so easy to incorporate this setting into the bigger picture as for me the sensation doesn't tie into the sensation of moving from Einsetzen to Ansetzen. I also find it more difficult to feel what the bottom lip is doing.


I also find it relatively hard to feel what the lower lip is doing, especially when sustaining a note. When attacking, I feel contact with both lower and upper lip.

Do you permanently feel the contact with the lower lip? I think my tongue is lightly caressing it, but i have difficulty to actually feel the contact when sustaining. Similarly for the tip of the tongue: When attacking I feel it anchored behind the cutting edge of the lower teeth. However, when sustaining a note, I don't really feel it.
This still causes problems for me since, if you can't perfectly identify the right sensation, odds are you won't always notice the wrong one either. Sound is a good guide, but I can, to a certain extent, cheat and center the note when something is not right.

Would be great to get feedback from everyone about what your feeling is when sustaining a note. Do you feel lower/upper lip? Cutting edges of lower/upper teeth?

On another note: I am currently working on my mid register and more and more get the impression that this really is the key. Once everything works up to high C, I think the rest automatically happens as the alternatives (tongue arch, lots of air) don't work anyway beyond a certain point.
This is actually also a great control mechanism: Each time I produce an easy in tune note above high G, I must have applied TCE correctly.


trumpetplanet wrote:

FYI Monsterchops is the name Bahb gives to a device for strengthening the obicularis oris. His two books are the TCE Training Manual and TCE Power Training.


Thanks for the info! I had watched a video about that device and apparently just assumed he named one of his books after it too.

Although naming a device like that is of course equally ridiculous.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also find it relatively hard to feel what the lower lip is doing, especially when sustaining a note. When attacking, I feel contact with both lower and upper lip.


I think you misinterpreted my comment there - I only meant this in reference to having the tongue tip behind the teeth as described in the image on the DVD.

Quote:
Do you permanently feel the contact with the lower lip?


Always. The isometric tension created between the lip and the tongue is what gives the embouchure its stability and strength.

Generally I think the only helpful suggestion at this point would be to start away from the trumpet. Ok, so you can spit buzz short notes... a longer one is the same but the imaginary hair you're spitting doesn't go away - just keep the air going. Control the release of the air with the tongue and control the tongue with the bottom lip.

When you can do this then bring the sensation back to the trumpet.

Quote:
Sound is a good guide, but I can, to a certain extent, cheat and center the note when something is not right.


Bending or forcing notes into pitch center is actually a flaw you should be listening for in the sound. If your attacks are strong and clear, and the note doesn't waver in pitch after the attack then this is correct.

If you know that you're cheating then stop doing it! Only practice being right.

Would it be possible for you to post a recording or video for us to see your progress?
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
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Justus
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for the detailed reply, Trumpetplanet!

trumpetplanet wrote:


Justus wrote:
Do you permanently feel the contact with the lower lip?


Always. The isometric tension created between the lip and the tongue is what gives the embouchure its stability and strength.

Generally I think the only helpful suggestion at this point would be to start away from the trumpet. Ok, so you can spit buzz short notes... a longer one is the same but the imaginary hair you're spitting doesn't go away - just keep the air going. Control the release of the air with the tongue and control the tongue with the bottom lip.

When you can do this then bring the sensation back to the trumpet.



I am not saying the contact is not there, I just find it hard to feel when sustaining a note.
My spit buzz is very good by now I think. I get a very poppy buzz and can maintain a note while feeling contact with both lips. On the trumpet the sensation is different though due to the mouthpiece cup.

Is the feeling on the trumpet really exactly like the spit buzz? I thought it was an example of too much tongue which is intended to move your playing in the right direction?


trumpetplanet wrote:


Justus wrote:
Sound is a good guide, but I can, to a certain extent, cheat and center the note when something is not right.


Bending or forcing notes into pitch center is actually a flaw you should be listening for in the sound. If your attacks are strong and clear, and the note doesn't waver in pitch after the attack then this is correct.

If you know that you're cheating then stop doing it! Only practice being right.


I am of course focusing a lot on avoiding that, but it still sometimes happens. I reread the MSC instructions yesterday and focused more on doing a tongue stop which helps a lot in trying to avoid letting the tongue recede. Whenever the tongue does recede, at least for me, it's at this point unfortunately still an extremely well ingrained habit to increase blow and arch the back of the tongue to compensate it.

trumpetplanet wrote:

Would it be possible for you to post a recording or video for us to see your progress?


Yeah, that's a very good idea. I have a long rehearsal today, but will record something tomorrow.


Last edited by Justus on Tue May 30, 2017 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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