Lip problems and range

[Matt007Trumpet]

Hello, I am a high school trumpet player of 6 years who has always had a subpar range.

I am not really sure what I am doing wrong, no matter how much air I put through the horn, anything above an A directly above the staff just sounds airy and sputters out after a few seconds. It is my suspicion that my lips may be the problem, as whenever I play, I get a massive swollen lump on my lip that sticks around for half an hour after I am done playing. I don't know if the problem lies in the mouthpiece I am using(Bach 1-1/2c), how I am putting the air through the horn, or what. My endurance is also terrible, and everything just feels sort of unnatural and counterproductive when I play. It is extremely aggravating, as I know I have the ability better player than this.

If anyone has some tips, they would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[Robert P]

[dstdenis]

Massive swollen lumps are a huge red flag. That isn't normal. It's a sign that you're beating up your chops. Your first step is to stop beating yourself up (literally). Until that stops and you begin a healthier approach, your range and endurance won't get any better.

Next step is to get on a sensible, healthy program to develop your skills, including tone production, articulation, lip flexibility, finger flexibility, sight reading, musical phrasing, etc.

The key is to work on these things at a level that's easy enough so that you can play them really well, with a good sound. Don't waste your time playing material at a level that's so difficult for you that everything sounds terrible. Play where it sounds great, and gradually build from there without beating yourself up.

If you need help figuring out exactly how to do this, find a really good trumpet teacher to observe your playing and set you up with a sensible program. Good luck!
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[Lionel]

[razeontherock]

All the above. All I see that is missing is we don't really move large quantities of air to play trumpet, but the lower range does use more air. The higher range needs more air compression. Air is a gas, so it will compress. Air pressure, and we have to control that in our mouth for it to pass from the lungs to the mouthpiece. This doesn't really require lip strength until you go above high C.

[Winghorn]

Bach mouthpieces are terrible for development?

Seriously?

I find myself at a loss for words, which may be a first for me.

Steve

[HERMOKIWI]

[TrpPro]

Get a Bach 10 1/2 C

[Winghorn]

Get a Bach 10 1/2C?

Get a teacher.

How can we properly advise this young man when we have never seen or heard him play?

The answer to every problem, real or imagined, is not "get a smaller mouthpiece." At least in my opinion it is not.

It is get a mouthpiece of the size that works best for the individual player.

And then put in the long hours of practice necessary fot trumpet mastery.

At least this is what my own experience would suggest.

Steve

[jscahoy]

[bach_again]

[deleted_user_680e93b]

HERMOKIWI SAID -- The OP's description of things is consistent with the use of excessive pressure, so that's something that should be considered as a source of the problems. Also, a 1 1/2C is a pretty big mouthpiece so maybe something a little smaller, like a 3C might be a better choice, although we can't know for certain without actually seeing the OP play and observing how the mouthpiece is working.

I kind of agree with HERMOKIWI here, sounds like the classic open aperture, pull in hard to close it with lots of arm pressure thing, that is very common amongst high schoolers and others. I was a victim of it myself in high school.
i used the same size mouthpiece 1 1/2C as well.
Ofcourse finding some good instruction from a good teacher would be great, perhaps he can't do this, or won't. I will give my standard answer when i hear this type of problem. Learn to blow the Lead Pipe in the manner that is described by Bill Adam Teachers. when done correctly it will start you down the road to working with a more closed aperture and help with the pressure issue as well. The pipe simply won't vibrate if your too open and if you use too much pressure it will sound nasally and not vibrate the way it is supposed too. Start with closed lips and blow air thru them to start the lips to moving.

there are tons of examples on the web.
check out Jon Ruff videos on youtube,
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips

Check Out Greg spence videos on youtube.
http://mysterytomastery.com/free-lessons/

Go to the bill adam forum on this site and you will find lots of info on this, Better Yet, try to take a Skype lesson from Matt Anklan. His site has lots of sound examples for you as well. Keep blowin that horn matt, it is possible for anyone to learn to play correctly and without swollen lips, i know because i was just like you in high school, no range (high C was it)and swollen cut lips all the time.
I play every day now doing the Adam Expanding scale exercise from low F# to F# above high C without much effort and i haven't cut my lips or had swollen lips in years.

regards,

tom

PS - Listen to Bach_AGain above me, he knows alot about this stuff !
Excellent post Mike !!

t

[Brad361]

[jengstrom]

[John Mohan]

[Lionel]

We're going to find good upper registers on trumpet playerd using all sizes of mouthpieces. In fact if you give me a trombone mouthpiece? Depending upon the kind of shape I'm in I can usually sustain a tone in the vicinity of a triple C.

Not the double C but the triple.

But if I was a developing player? I wouldn't want to handicap myself. And in fact the majority of distinguished lead players apparently concur. As I dont see them playing Bach 1 or Schilke 22. Granted a few use some pretty large pieces. Arturo plays something based upon the design of the Bach 3C. However he almost stands alone.

I find myself in rare agreement with Kurt Thompson. A good high note if somewhat abrasive trumpet playing personality. Anyway Thompson most notably demonstrates the playing of a solid double C on both a Bach 1 and his much shallower lead piece. Its somewhere on Youtube. Sure he can do it, but why do it when something else gets the job done much more easily.

I once had a taped discussion recording of Bill Chase. He mentioned that he once played the whole lead book for the Eoody Herman band on a Bach 1C. However he claimed afterwards, "Man I was finished afterwards".

His point being that such a large, deep mouthpiece while possible to use for one night was impossible to continue using night after night. And this here brings up the contention I wanted the O/P to digest,

"The mouthpiece which allows you to sustain your high note performance the longest is the one you'll both improve your skilld and increase your usable and 'squeaker' range on".

Isnt that just logic? But then comes the reverse side of the same coin, If this young fellow switches ftom his Bach 1C to a mouthpiece more favorable to the development of range, what will he lose or give up in return"?

My answer is "not much". So long as he doesnt go to extremes his switch ought to show only a consistent improvement. He "losing" only cracked notes, insecure attacks near the limit of his register etc. That and he'll develop much less fatigue. Being able to play longer hours.

I do carry a couple large mouthpieces in the bag. One is a customized piece similar in depth and dimension as Bach 3C but with a rounded rim contour (for flexibility) and very little inner rim "bite". Then when choosing to really get a deep sound for classical music? Will shift to a flugelhorn mouthpiece with a cornet adapter. Or I may just stick the piece in my cornet. Results in a marvelous, mellow "teutonic" tone but must shove the tuning slide in almost flush. As it blows flat otherwise.

So I'm not someone who doesnt appreciate the value of a large mouthpiece. I know where John and the others are coming from. However am not going to play above the high C on such a large piece. Not in performance. And even though well over sixty years old today I still like to consider myself a developing player. And since improving in the upper register I'm gonna continue to use the mouthpiece which assists my development the most. And both logic and physics will prove this out over time.

The o/p is not going to lose any technique by shifting to a smaller piece. He might consider getting two.

A Schilke 12 for general work and,
Schilke 12B and/or 12A. The "A" being the shallowest of the three. Each piece is similar in rim and wont change the way his enbouchure feels when switching between the two. But he doesnt have to limit himself to the "12" series by Schilke. The 11 through 14 are possible candidates too. However anything smaller in dimension than the 11 could be "culture shock" to his chops. Since he's so well used to blowing large mouthpieces.

Schilke makes some great pieces between the 6 and 10 but each is significantly smaller in inner rim dimension. And some like the 6a4a are really shallow. Suitable mostly for only the professional or someone with lots of experience getting conditioned to the shallower pieces.

The really shallow pieces have a couple characteristics in common with the super large pieces. Like the Bach 1 or Schilke 20 - 23. They take more practice and skill to use well.
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Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

[Brad361]

Just my opinion here, but I think the OP has problems that far exceed his 1 1/2C. Like Lionel in the above, I developed (WITH THE AID OF A PRIVATE TEACHER) a fairly reliable G (fourth ledger line above the staff) on a large mpce (Schilke 20), but I certainly don't use that now, and that has almost as much to do with the type of tone color I need as it does with making my job easier (I did say almost 😉). I do agree that most lead players probably use a "lead" mpce, and who am I to argue with guys on the level of a Chase (RIP), Bergeron, Brecker, Rapa, etc.?

But I'm not a developing player who is experiencing a "lump" after playing, IMO this person needs to get some qualified instruction. Is his mpce part of the problem? I don't know, maybe, but I have not seen and heard him.

And BTW, did the OP say he was trying to become a "lead player?" I think he said he was a high school player with a "sub par range."

I don't necessarily disagree with Lionel's comments, I just can't draw conclusions based on the OP's description of his problem. And the other thing he does not mention is whether he puts in much PRACTICE TIME.

And to the OP, if you're still here: I hope you don't take the comments you've received as negative, there's nothing wrong with asking your questions here, but I think you need in-person evaluation. I hope you get some, and that you stick around here!

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval

[Winghorn]

As I and other thoughtful posters have stated, the OP clearly needs the help of a good teacher.

He does not need "one size fits all' advice from armchair quarterbacks who wrongly believe that just because something worked for them, it will work for everyone.

As Brad361 correctly observed, the OP never stated he wanted to be a lead player. So why all the talk about double and triple Cs? The guy is in high school, for goodness sakes, not getting ready to try out for Maynard's ghost band!

I have an idea. If the OP is unable to afford lessons from a good private teacher, why don't we all chip in and set him up with a couple of Skype lessons with John Mohan? I am serious.

The physical problems this young high school player is having sound serious. If something isn't done right away, he may permanently injure himself and ruin his chances for ever becoming a good trumpet player.

If John is willing, I would gladly contribute toward the cost of some Skype lessons. Anyone else?

Sincerely,

Steve

[Brad361]

[cheiden]