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CG Personal Mouthpiece


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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I got the Marcink. CG3 in the mail today. Have to say, I really like this mouthpiece too.



Sheeesh. Now I have to get them both.

Warm regards,
Grits
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
I got the Marcink. CG3 in the mail today. Have to say, I really like this mouthpiece too. The CGP has a darker sound, but the CG3 just feels a lot zippier and louder in the upper register which is nice. Really digging it.

Out of curiosity, anyone know what the throat is in the CG3?


It should be a #23. But I'm not sure what they're making it with. The original Benge CG3, and the earlier Kanstul CG3 mouthpieces came with a #23 throat. Here's the text description of the mouthpieces from the (defunct) Claude Gordon Music Enterprise Website:


Quote:
The "C G Personal" is a modified V-cup mouthpiece with a 22 drill. Claude Gordon believed this mouthpiece represented his finest achievement in mouthpiece design and would endure throughout the life of any brass player. For this reason Claude matched his "C G Personal" design for the trumpet, flugelhorn and cornet. There is none on the market that compare to it.

The CG-3 mouthpiece is an earlier Claude Gordon design, has a bowl cup and a 23 drill. (slightly smaller than the C G Personal) It too was considered by Claude to be one of his finer designs but is made for the trumpet only.


The webpage is archived here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030207135204/http://www.claudegordonmusic.com:80/products.htm

But now on the current Kanstul website the CG3 is said to have a #22 throat and the CG Personal is listed with a #20 throat. The original CG Personal came with a #22 throat with the larger #20 throat being an option and few people I know bought it with that larger, optional throat. The Kanstul website also incorrectly describes the CG Personal as having a "deep bowl" shape (the CG Personal has a modified V-shaped cup). I think it's sad when a company seems to no longer know what they are making and selling...

I'm sure one can order a Kanstul made CG Personal with a #22 throat or the CG3 with a #23 throat. But I don't understand why folks feel the need to change things for no apparent reason. Kind of reminds me how Carl Fischer Music hired some unnamed reviser to rape and pillage the text instructions Herbert L. Clarke wrote before each of the Studies in his Technical Studies for the Cornett book. Change is not always good.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:


But I don't understand why folks feel the need to change things for no apparent reason.
Change is not always good.


i totally agree with you john and all of this Marcinkiewitz CG piece talk and different blank talk bothers me as they are modified versions of Claude's original pieces and not precise to spec as fas as i can tell.

i would prefer that they were referred to as modified CG personal et, al..
so as not to confuse old farts like me.

ron
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

homebilly wrote:
John Mohan wrote:


But I don't understand why folks feel the need to change things for no apparent reason.
Change is not always good.


i totally agree with you john and all of this Marcinkiewitz CG piece talk and different blank talk bothers me as they are modified versions of Claude's original pieces and not precise to spec as fas as i can tell.

i would prefer that they were referred to as modified CG personal et, al..
so as not to confuse old farts like me.

ron


I think that is the main reason the official model name for the Marcinkiewicz version of the CG Personal is "CG P". Given that it is a (slightly) modified version of the CG Personal, by definition it is not a "CG Personal". The CG P has a slightly bigger diameter than the original CG Personal because Joe Marcinkiewicz wanted to create parody in the rim/cup diameter of the CG 3 and CG Personal (they were already pretty close but not identical) so that players could switch between them for different styles of music (which is something that as we know, Claude would have gone ballistic over!!!). Given that I myself do use different mouthpieces for different material (sorry Claude but there is a lot more variance in musical styles today than yesteryear), I can't really criticize this idea.

I think what is important is to keep in mind that the Marcinkiewicz versions, while great mouthpieces and perhaps even a better choice for some than the originals, are not original versions, but modified versions of Claude's mouthpiece designs.

I was one of those who were asked to play test and give input on the prototypes of the Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces (and CG Trumpets) back when they were all being developed. I found the whole collection to be of merit. I hope both the Kanstul and Marcinkiewicz companies continue to produce Claude's designs and in particular, I hope Kanstul doesn't stray (any farther) from the original designs.

One last thought I'll leave you all with. Though Claude was absolutely adamant that one should find a good, open, free-flowing mouthpiece and "stay with it always" he was equally adamant that rim choice was an extremely personal choice. And he felt this way about both the shape and size of the rim (though in his book he only mentions shape). The last page of his book Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing:


https://s25.postimg.org/oai6la9u7/BPINHTDB_35.jpg
(Click on the image to open it up full sized in a separate window).



Cheers,

John

Cheers,

John


Last edited by John Mohan on Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

got it.

I'll just stick to my old 1982 claude given warhorse on the Benge blank
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

homebilly wrote:
got it.

I'll just stick to my old 1982 claude given warhorse on the Benge blank


Is it just a coincidence that some of the best players I've ever met, including Ron (homebilly), Jeff Purtle and Arturo Sandoval are also the guys that have stuck with one mouthpiece for years and years? Hmmm...
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played a CG Selmer since December 1984 and a CG Personal mouthpiece since August 1984. I don't even change between my two CG Selmer trumpets or my 3 or 4 very similar CG Personal mouthpieces. I can sense very slight differences and don't want to mess with anything.

The guy I took from before Claude Gordon was an incredible player named Charles (Chuck) Brady. He wasn't necessarily a good teacher but he modeled a beautiful sound and absolute perfect accuracy. I NEVER heard him crack a single note in a lesson or in a performance for the six years I was with him. Brady played very easy and correct but didn't know how to take me through the process he went through.

However, one of the best things he TRIED to teach me was to not mess with equipment. Right before starting with Claude I went on a mouthpiece hunt, playing everything from a Bach 1 with a " drill in the through to a Maynard Fergusson Jettone that I was playing at my first lesson with Claude. Claude gave me a funny look when he noticed it. That's another story.

Brady looked at me one day and said, "I would rather have one bad mouthpiece than two good ones." I was baffled and asked why. He said because if he had a bad day or missed something in a performance he wouldn't wonder if it would have been better on the other mouthpiece. If he missed he knew he had to practice better. At the time I thought he was dumb for getting down on me trying mouthpieces. But, in time I say that as one of the wisest things he TRIED to convince me of. It took Claude Gordon to be more forceful to get the point across to me along with other things I hadn't been taught.

Jeff
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Purtle posted:
Quote:

I have played a CG Selmer since December 1984 and a CG Personal mouthpiece since August 1984. I don't even change between my two CG Selmer trumpets or my 3 or 4 very similar CG Personal mouthpieces.


Are you playing a Benge CG Personal?

How did you know that it was the right diameter for you? Did you just take it on faith from Claude and make it work?

The reason that I ask is because I've tried everything from a Bach 7C to a Bach 1. I finally split the difference with a Curry 3C and am making it work. It seems to me, that I could have made any diameter (at least from a 7C to a Bach 1) work for the type of playing that I do (nothing above a C above the staff). I was playing the Bach 1 and liked it, but switched to the Curry 3C when I started using SATDP (I figured a smaller diameter would help with the range exercises - and it did).

I am sold on the idea of picking a mouthpiece and sticking with it - but I haven't picked my mouthpiece yet.

Warm regards,
Grits
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dcjway
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a box of mouthpieces in a lot of sizes and brands. When Jeff had me start with a CG personal with a 20 throat I hated it and wanted to throw it in the trash, I'm glad I didn't. With consistent practice my wind power has improved and my old NY Bach 3 feels too tight, I have also started using a Claude Gordon Selmer. I hadn't realized how much I like open free blowing equipment until this past week when I sent the Selmer to Bob Reeves for a valve alignment, can't wait to get it back. I love the full, warm and rounded sound that I have with this combination. All the players that I love to listen to, with few exceptions, have played one mouthpiece consistently unless something happened like an injury caused them to change. I'm so glad that I switched from daily searching to daily playing.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I can't see the group shots either. I can see the other pics though.

Eb
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:


It should be a #23. But I'm not sure what they're making it with. The original Benge CG3, and the earlier Kanstul CG3 mouthpieces came with a #23 throat. Here's the text description of the mouthpieces from the (defunct) Claude Gordon Music Enterprise Website:


Hi John,

Thanks for that info. Reason I asked is I've seen it listed and heard a few different things, and was just curious.

On the Marcink website, it's listed with the same drill venturi as the CGP-22 so I'm guessing it's a #22 throat. But I saw somewhere else had it listed as a #20 and I've heard a few people on here say #23 so I wasn't sure, but I'm going to assume the Marcink website is correct

https://www.marcinkiewicz.com/mouthpieces/claude-gordon/claude-gordon-series/

I really can't say how much I enjoy playing both of the Marcink CGs now. I went on extend hunt trying to find a mouthpiece that I thought really worked for me, because I was having a few persistent problems with the CG Personal.

After coming back to the CGs now, I've absolutely fallen in love with them. They overall just work better for me than anything else.

What I've learnt from this experience is that the reason I was having those problems was not because of the mouthpieces, but because I was over practising and not resting enough when I was originally playing the CG Personal. I was never properly recovering from my practice, so I was always fatigued to some extent, which meant that I was using too much pressure, and so I felt like that rim was sinking into my face. The mouthpiece pressure was the problem, the problem was the over practising.
Now I know when I'm not being diligent enough with resting because I start feeling a little bit of that old 'sinking into the face' sensation, at which point I just put the trumpet away for an extended period.
But I must also be a fair bit stronger now, as I really don't feel that very often.

---

John, that photo from Deep Breathing is interesting with what it says about the mouthpiece rim shape. Although it should be taken with a grain of salt, as I think Claude was pretty against any sort of 'cushion rim' right? I remember him poking fun of Rudy Muck mouthpieces in that lecture saying something like "Now players are buying Rudy Muck mouthpieces, where you put the piece up and it covers your whole face!" or something like that.

Personally, having tried a lot of different contours, and gone down the wider-rim for endurance and comfort route, these CGs are giving me my best comfort and endurance, which I find interesting as I have a sharp, protruding lower tooth. Doesn't bother me at all (anymore) with the thin rim of the CGs. So logic is a strange thing when it comes to trumpet playing!

One thing I will say though, if you're trying a CG and the sound just isn't quite "Bach" enough, you may want to try wrapping a rubber band around the grooves in the blank beneath the cup. To my ear, you get a little more 'bach-ness' to the sound, without anything much noticeable from a playing perspective. And if you don't like it, you can just take it off and use that rubber band for normal things...
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, and this is a bit of a tangent, but for those of you with a trumpet with the CG leadpipe, one thing you may also want to keep an eye on is your pinky hook. If know you'll think I'm talking crap here, but if that hook gets bent up or down any, it has a pretty noticeable impact on the feel of the horn. It was designed with the little flat bit at the very top that faces the player to be perpendicular to the leadpipe.
The more bent down the hook gets, the more resistance you'll feel, and the more it's bent up, the less resistance you'll feel. Effects the sound some too.
Apparently, you'll see quite a few CG horns (both selmer and benge) around which have had the hook bent up a lot deliberately by people who are/were really just using them to playing the loudest Double Cs possible. If that's not what you're using your horn for, you may want to carefully bend it back (it's pretty easy) as it plays better when positioned as designed. (Who would have thought?!)

I was told this by someone who used to work in the Benge factory many years ago.

Also, don't worry, it's not your leadpipe bending or whatever (assuming there's not rot), just the hook. There is apparently an important node right underneath the pinky hook that is affected by it.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
Are you playing a Benge CG Personal?


There is no such thing. Claude designed the CG Personal sometime around 1981 or maybe 1982 and from day one it was manufactured by Kanstul.

The Benge CG mouthpieces were the Benge CG1, CG3, CG7, CG10 and the Benge Gordon Model. These mouthpieces corresponded in cup diameter to the similarly numbered Bach C cup mouthpieces. Their cups were all a bit deeper with higher alpha angles than the corresponding Bach mouthpieces (basically, a more V-shaped cup), and the throats and backbores were more open than the stock Bach designs. The Benge Gordon Model had a cup diameter similar to a Bach 5C and was Claude's actual "personal" mouthpiece during the final years of his full time playing career. It was offered in two versions, the Benge Gordon Model and the Benge Gordon Model S. The S stood for "Standard" stem taper (it came with a Morse taper that fit Bach and other American brand trumpets). The Benge Gordon Model came with a thinner French stem taper that fit the French Besson Meha trumpet that Claude played.

Jeff plays on the same Kanstul-made CG Personal that one can buy from Kanstul for $60 today (a bargain!).

Cheers,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
...I think Claude was pretty against any sort of 'cushion rim' right? I remember him poking fun of Rudy Muck mouthpieces in that lecture saying something like "Now players are buying Rudy Muck mouthpieces, where you put the piece up and it covers your whole face!" or something like that....

Personally, having tried a lot of different contours, and gone down the wider-rim for endurance and comfort route, these CGs are giving me my best comfort and endurance, which I find interesting as I have a sharp, protruding lower tooth. Doesn't bother me at all (anymore) with the thin rim of the CGs....


Claude wasn't necessarily against the concept of a wider rim, he was just against extremes.

The rim of the CG mouthpieces is not really thin - in particular the rim of the CG Personal is about as thick as that of a Bach 3C, but just more rounded. The skeletal antique cornet style blank makes it look visually thinner than it is (and that blank shape does cause the rim to feel different on the lips than a typical modern blank does).


Rim Comparison:



https://s25.postimg.org/gq33ct83z/CG_Personal_Rim_Shape_green_vs_Bach_3_C_Rim_Sha.jpg
CG Personal Rim Shape (green) vs Bach 3C Rim Shape (red)


Cup Comparison:


https://s25.postimg.org/l0hr8ed73/CG_Personal_green_vs_Bach_3_C_red.jpg
CG Personal (green) vs Bach 3C (red)
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
John Mohan posted:

There is no such thing. Claude designed the CG Personal sometime around 1981 or maybe 1982 and from day one it was manufactured by Kanstul.

The Benge CG mouthpieces were the Benge CG1, CG3, CG7, CG10 and the Benge Gordon Model. These mouthpieces corresponded in cup diameter to the similarly numbered Bach C cup mouthpieces. Their cups were all a bit deeper with higher alpha angles than the corresponding Bach mouthpieces (basically, a more V-shaped cup), and the throats and backbores were more open than the stock Bach designs. The Benge Gordon Model had a cup diameter similar to a Bach 5C and was Claude's actual "personal" mouthpiece during the final years of his full time playing career. It was offered in two versions, the Benge Gordon Model and the Benge Gordon Model S. The S stood for "Standard" stem taper (it came with a Morse taper that fit Bach and other American brand trumpets). The Benge Gordon Model came with a thinner French stem taper that fit the French Besson Meha trumpet that Claude played.

Jeff plays on the same Kanstul-made CG Personal that one can buy from Kanstul for $60 today (a bargain!).


Once again, thanks for info.

Yes, the Kanstul CGP sounds like a steal.

Sheesh. So many mouthpieces. So little money.

Warm regards,
Grits
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually they all came with an S model. I have a couple of CG7S lying around and played on a CG3 which I had to put paper on to fit my Yamaha. Then the CG3S came along.

Eb
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a couple of Benge CG3s as well as a couple of Benge CG3Ss

as i recall the non S versions were also made to match the CG Benge Receiver and not just Claude's Meha

oh, and my CG prototype that Claude gave me (that i found out 25 years later became the Kanstul CG Personal) was modified from a Benge CG 3 but i don't remember if it was an S or not as i asked to have the markings lathed off at the time of customization. Burt Herrick did the work on my Claude given pieces

i do have about 5 Kanstul CG Personals and use them



from left to right
proto CG Personal on a Benge blank (1982) my name engraved on it for $1.50 in turkey in 1987
Kanstul CG Personal
Benge CG3S
Benge CG3 initials engraved but messed up from Giardinelli's c.1978
i played this when i was in college with Eb

the blue tape is for my Olds Ambassador receiver
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Last edited by homebilly on Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:57 am; edited 6 times in total
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why you got 5? I just got a Marc CG personal. The ID is too small for me. I'm thinking I want a CG3 rim on a CG7 cup. Would that me a huge thing?

Eb
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi eric

i like the size of the CG7 (i only have 1 of those) but i hate the rim.
it hurts

i just stumbled onto good deals so i ended up with 5

i do have to head over to Kurt's store to have him do the pencil test on the backbores.
he still has Claude's backbore tester pencil.

i like the old CG3s for lead playing. they have a nice sizzle to them
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
Actually they all came with an S model. I have a couple of CG7S lying around and played on a CG3 which I had to put paper on to fit my Yamaha. Then the CG3S came along.

Eb


Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. I had a CG7S as well.
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