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Mpc size to start a 3rd Grader on


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tvknight415
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Mpc size to start a 3rd Grader on Reply with quote

So my daughter continues to show an interest in starting to play, and I've begun working with her on my Olds Special cornet. The only bad thing is, all my mouthpieces are in the Curry 1.5 family (I started in school on tuba and have worked my way up, started trumpet playing with a 1C as an adult, so never really had anything in the smaller range). I know the 7c is what comes with most student horns. Would you say just get a bach or clone 7C cornet piece to start, or perhaps something smaller or larger? Or just keep working on a large mouthpiece? While she's only 9, she is already 5'2", so is really a short adult at this point (growing up too quickly).

Thanks for the insight.[/list]
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make life easier for her. Go with something around a 10.5C or maybe shallower than a C cup.

7 is still a little on the large side in my experience for somebody starting out. And the Bach rims especially on the 7C is on the sharp side.

90% or more folks will disagree with me. They all say "start on a 7C then move to a 5 or 3C" and they can't figure out why the player has no endurance and is always blowing on the flat side.

Using such large hardware for trumpeters is a new phenomenon in trumpet teaching in the last few decades. Some folks just aren't built or ready for such large mouthpieces then ended up quitting early because they just can't succeed.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest a Schilke 11 or a 9 (instead of a Bach). Good mouthpieces.

"And the Bach rims especially on the 7C is on the sharp side", and that's why I played a Schilke H (11).
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach 10 1/2 C
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going push for staying with a 7C, if you think that will be to sharp go with a Yamaha 11B4 (similar in size but less "bitey") Schilke's, though a wonderful mouthpiece for mature players, I thiink becasue of rim shape can promote using too much pressure and also makes it more challenging to learn a crisp clean attack to notes-not a great beginner piece.

The reason most new instruments come with a 7 or that neighborhood is because it is relatively medium.. in both rim size, rim shape, and cup depth.
Smalller (10.5 C) or shallower and larger (Curry 1.5) will ultimately impede her progress. There are many old, older, big people/pros that play on 7C's . It is not a "beginner" piece, just mid-sized.

The mouthpiece size has little to do with size of the child or adult for that matter. Unless a wise teacher that has been working directly with her has a specific reason made through observation and experimentation, stick with the middle ground for now.

I will also add that I'm not a huge fan of starting students until they're 5th grad or better... physically and cognitively not ready to truly learn a wind instrument.. Have fun with it, learn a couple songs maybe but wait a bit before diving into it more. Yes, you will probably read of several that started earlier and had no issues but, I think those cases are rare and probably a much higher percentage get frustrated and quit.
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are really only 2 good reasons why anybody moves to a big piece from a small piece and one of them is natural physical growth and development. The other is what sounds and/or feels better, based on embouchure type.

Rim diameter, especially for beginners, is about leverage. It follows then that going smaller than a 7c for a person at least 2 or 3 years younger in physical growth from the age that most kids start playing makes sense. Then again, I know cats that played a Bach 10.5C from the start and never changed - at least not until long after they got old enough to blow up their own hundred-dollar bill for a different piece. Since this is a female, there's a good chance that her facial features are even smaller at that age.

Second thoughts: Females normally develop sooner than boys, so waiting even one or two more years until about 5th grade might yield better results, as opposed to developing a negative association in relative isolation and quitting prematurely. Females also typically become far more socialized - almost socially-dependent on a circle of friends - over the next 3-6 years. Part of what keeps kids practicing and sticking to it through their most-frustrating 1st and 2nd years is the fact that they are IN BAND - a group that is not only easily socially-identifiable in their larger peer group, but also elective and selected by those with a similar desire in common and who therefore become their circle of friends.

So, getting a "head-start" is great, but the prospect of doing something that's just "hard" with no real social payoff for at least 2 or 3 years might be a bit premature. Also, you don't want her to be bored in beginning band; sharing the same struggle with her friends and then rising above is likely even more important to normal socialization than how she sounds or how good she actually is in her first year or two.

I'd advise letting her try a lot of different instruments at this point, and not even get too heavy into "method" that might quickly become unpleasant, unless this is just a particularly-driven child who has a predisposition towards maintaining a singular focus over long periods. If that's the case, then I would strongly recommend getting another private teacher to drive practice schedules and a lesson curriculum. You just be the hero-on-hand who can readily answer questions and demonstrate. That way you stay appreciated and the parent that she just wants to please, instead of a monolithic representative of everything intimidating and overwhelming about playing trumpet that she will soon come to realize, as well as becoming the walking, talking set of imposing parental expectations that could irreparably chafe her perception of the experience.

So, if this is just curiosity on her part, then you might just as well start her on something really small, soft-edged and very comfortable, and then just monitor progress, level of increasing or decreasing interest, and physical growth. Then about 6th grade or following her next growth spurt, her sound and progress will indicate when and whether she needs a different mouthpiece.
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all know Bach changes their mouthpiece designs about every decade without telling anyone. The new Bach 10.5C is not small anymore, especially for a little kid. In fact it feels almost like a 7C, but is much easier to play and has a much better (and more comfortable) rim. That's why I recommended it.

Next year, I am going to start my 6th graders on the 10.5c by default. But I will have a stack of 5c and 3c there if it seems to be too small for them, and I will test which one is best for that kid. God bless my local music store who will facilitate this!
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
We all know Bach changes their mouthpiece designs about every decade without telling anyone. The new Bach 10.5C is not small anymore, especially for a little kid. In fact it feels almost like a 7C, but is much easier to play and has a much better (and more comfortable) rim. That's why I recommended it.

Next year, I am going to start my 6th graders on the 10.5c by default. But I will have a stack of 5c and 3c there if it seems to be too small for them, and I will test which one is best for that kid. God bless my local music store who will facilitate this!


Yeah, what he said. The modern 7C is pretty darn big. In fact, the modern 10-1/2C is about the same size as the 7C from the 70s and 80s, which is perhaps what many of you are remembering.

Tom
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
jadickson wrote:
We all know Bach changes their mouthpiece designs about every decade without telling anyone. The new Bach 10.5C is not small anymore, especially for a little kid. In fact it feels almost like a 7C, but is much easier to play and has a much better (and more comfortable) rim. That's why I recommended it.

Next year, I am going to start my 6th graders on the 10.5c by default. But I will have a stack of 5c and 3c there if it seems to be too small for them, and I will test which one is best for that kid. God bless my local music store who will facilitate this!


Yeah, what he said. The modern 7C is pretty darn big. In fact, the modern 10-1/2C is about the same size as the 7C from the 70s and 80s, which is perhaps what many of you are remembering.

Tom


I always thought there was some conspiracy amongst trumpeters, for the purpose of stifling success and progress on other players by forcing them to play such huge mouthpieces.

Bach seems to be complicit in this conspiracy Their pieces DO in fact get larger and larger over the years. Is this because of worn tooling? Just a revamp in design? Or on purpose to make life even more difficult for trumpeters?!?!

I've said this over and over, that decades ago, pros and amateurs alike, played a much wider range of sizes of trumpet mouthpieces. Orchestra musicians weren't locked into ONLY playing variations of a Bach 1 and so many more jazz musicians played smaller pieces.

I don't understand the machismo mentality of working so hard on bigger hardware that yields such little benefit.
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The conspiracy is the 7c rim contour being scanned from a torture device from the Dark Ages. I guess it's a way to recruit low brass. "Hey kid, trumpet hurts, don't it? Here, try this nice trombone..."

.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
We all know Bach changes their mouthpiece designs about every decade without telling anyone. The new Bach 10.5C is not small anymore, especially for a little kid. In fact it feels almost like a 7C, but is much easier to play and has a much better (and more comfortable) rim. That's why I recommended it.

Hi jadickson

If the new Bach 10.5C is almost 7C sized, then I totally agree that it would be a good choice. I always thought that the older Bach 10.5C was a nice piece, but too small for me personally.

Regarding this particular 9 year old, although presumably she will have the smaller facial features of a child, she appears to be pretty tall for her age. In fact rather than a little kid she is only half an inch shorter than me, so I would have thought that something with a medium rather than small cup diameter would be a good choice.

Best wishes

Lou


Next year, I am going to start my 6th graders on the 10.5c by default. But I will have a stack of 5c and 3c there if it seems to be too small for them, and I will test which one is best for that kid. God bless my local music store who will facilitate this!

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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It'll be a bit more expensive, but I would recommend a Reeves 42C. The 42C has an inner cup diameter almost identical to that of the Bach 10-1/2C (when Bob matches a customer's 10-1/2C rim to his underparts it's the 42 underparts he matches it to). But the 42C is not as deep as the 10-1/2C (the 10-1/2C is one of the deeper Bach C cup mouthpieces relative to its diameter). Also, the rim on the 42C is a bit wider (thicker) and more comfortable. The Reeves C cup mouthpieces are almost magic in how they provide a nice, warm tone in the lower and mid registers but really do make the upper register easier and stronger than that of even shallower mouthpieces. You can find good ones used for sale in the TH Marketplace.

I started my own son off on a Reeves 43C (he wasn't in third grade - he was in Middle School, otherwise I'd have chosen a 42C) and he did fine with it, though now that he's a Sergeant and a Combat Engineer in the U.S. Army, he doesn't have much use for it anymore.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou I would not use the kid's height to judge what mouthpiece size they should use. I think Rafael Mendez played a 10.5c, and obviously he was a grown man.

It's best to let them try a few. One of them will obviously be "easier to play". I would have a 10.5c, 5c, and 3c. Don't tell them what the difference is, just let them try to get a low C out on all three of them and see if one sticks out.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou makes a good point: if your daughter is already 5' 2", she might be ready for a mid-sized mouthpiece. It really depends on the size of her lips. If the mouthpiece rim diameter is too small for her, she might have to play with the rim on the red part, which can cause trouble. If the mouthpiece rim diameter is too large for her, it will make trumpet playing more strenuous and difficult.

She can tell you how it feels, and you can see where the rim is landing on her lips while she's playing and after she removes the mouthpiece from her lips.

You might also consider a Yamaha mouthpiece. I haven't played their smaller versions, but I have played their mouthpieces that fit me and I think they're pretty good. Relatively inexpensive too.
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tvknight415
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for the suggestions. I'll give a call to the music stores in the area and see what they have in stock to try with her. Right now, she's only blowing bottom C, and occasionally slurs it up to G. I just started letting her work for notes this weekend, so she's not doing much.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
Lou I would not use the kid's height to judge what mouthpiece size they should use. I think Rafael Mendez played a 10.5c, and obviously he was a grown man.

It's best to let them try a few. One of them will obviously be "easier to play". I would have a 10.5c, 5c, and 3c. Don't tell them what the difference is, just let them try to get a low C out on all three of them and see if one sticks out.


Hi Justin

Sounds a good way of deciding which one to go for.

I wasn't literally meaning that we should use height to judge mouthpiece size, just pointing out (as the mother of a daughter who will be 9 in July and who is I reckon more like 4' 8" in height) that this child is at least on the tall side, and may generally be larger than average over all, and it may not be necessary as has been suggested in furcifer's post, to consider a smaller mouthpiece than usual, even if this young lady is 2 or 3 years younger than the age of a typical beginner.

Actually, I know that you personally didn't say so, but I'm not sure that she is 2 or 3 years younger than a typical beginner, as in the UK nine is a pretty typical age to start on cornet. There are two Yr 4 (in the British education system for children born between 01.09.07 and 31.08.08 ) classes in my daughters school. The other class are playing cornet (I have no idea which mouthpiece they are using, but I'd have bought my daughter a 10.5C if she was in the cornet group, if anything else was supplied, considering her small size) and my daughter is unfortunately playing Eb clarinet. I say unfortunately because in her own words it is not going very well. In all fairness, since my daughter has learning difficulties, developmental delay and social communication difficulties, and presents as around five years old, I feel that she is too young, even if she is the same age as the other children learning in her class.

All the best

Lou
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody knows. You have to start somewhere. Buy a (cheap) Yamaha 11B4 (very good mp), not too big, not too small, certainly not deep (most of the 7C's are too deep for a beginner) so that makes an inexpensive and very reliable start. If the kid get some chops you can see. The problem with deep is that it invites for learning the wrong things.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Nobody knows. You have to start somewhere. Buy a (cheap) Yamaha 11B4 (very good mp), not too big, not too small, certainly not deep (most of the 7C's are too deep for a beginner) so that makes an inexpensive and very reliable start. If the kid get some chops you can see. The problem with deep is that it invites for learning the wrong things.


This makes sense to me. One reason so many schools, at least in my area, start kids on a Bach 7C is because that's what the stores stock, not necessarily because it's the best choice for a beginner. Same reason that their rentals are predominantly Yamaha 2335's (NOT my favorite, but really, totally adequate for a beginner), because that's what the STORE pushes.

Best of luck, and don't forget to keep it fun for her!

Brad
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
We all know Bach changes their mouthpiece designs about every decade without telling anyone. The new Bach 10.5C is not small anymore, especially for a little kid. In fact it feels almost like a 7C, but is much easier to play and has a much better (and more comfortable) rim. That's why I recommended it.

If this is true, then I'll agree with that. I haven't looked at new Bach mouthpieces for many years.

zaferis wrote:
I'm going push for staying with a 7C, if you think that will be to sharp go with a Yamaha 11B4 (similar in size but less "bitey")


I agree. 11B4 is a 7C (old style 7C) with a friendlier rim.

Both are good suggestions, in my book.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Mpc size to start a 3rd Grader on Reply with quote

tvknight415 wrote:
So my daughter continues to show an interest in starting to play, and I've begun working with her on my Olds Special cornet. The only bad thing is, all my mouthpieces are in the Curry 1.5 family (I started in school on tuba and have worked my way up, started trumpet playing with a 1C as an adult, so never really had anything in the smaller range). I know the 7c is what comes with most student horns. Would you say just get a bach or clone 7C cornet piece to start, or perhaps something smaller or larger? Or just keep working on a large mouthpiece? While she's only 9, she is already 5'2", so is really a short adult at this point (growing up too quickly).

Thanks for the insight.[/list]


Most players learn on the 7C...it works!
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