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Systematic approach. Extreme or not?


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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

A friend of mine, who has actually got a job as principal trumpet in a major symphony orchestra, here in England, says he couldn't play A NOTE after doing this book course for 1 year!! Is it a bit extreme or not?

Sincerely.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is based on the teachings of Herbert L. Clarke. It relies very heavily on all of the classics: Clarke, Arban, St. Jacome, etc. That doesn't sound extreme to me.

I've been working out of the book since last November. I've seen improvement in my tone, endurance and range. Unfortunately, I have been travelling and have had a couple of health setbacks and so have lost about a month's practice time here recently, but I am anxious to get back to practicing and continuing the journey.

It is hard to say what went on with your friend. Chops can be both problematic and mysterious.

I am a novice and am just learning, but I have a theory. There are different embouchures and there are different approaches to playing the trumpet. Some methods work well for some players, but not for others. I think that the CG SATDP works well for people who don't over analyze what is going on with their mechanics and just let the exercises develop technique. I suspect that it would not be as useful for players who have some idiosyncrasies that that they are not willing to part with. But, it is hard for me to see how playing exercises from Clarke, Arban, etc. could do any damage.

I am interested in reading the comments of people who, unlike me, know what they are talking about.

Regards,
Grits
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presupposing your friend was already able to play when he started using the book...

Your friend's approach to it seems extreme. When he started having trouble, he should have sought out someone who could make sure he was doing it right or at least put it down and gone back to his normal routine that had previously worked.

In all seriousness, if he was truly unable to play a note after using the method for a year, why didn't he stop when he noticed degradation in his playing? One doesn't go from being able to play to destroyed overnight with zero indication that it is on the way.

Now, is there anything missing from your post? How much did he practice it per day? Did he do it in addition to his other routines and tax out his chops? Did he have a teacher?

While I haven't gone through the book myself, I have read it and looked at what it covers. It is not extreme, really. It is disciplined, structured. Done right (which, I imagine, means with a teacher) it seems it would produce some monster players.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The very most a book can provide is a map for how to get where you want to go. But even with the best map, some folks manage to walk off a cliff.

Any serious player should work with an appropriately high caliber teacher who can monitor them and their progress and make real-time adjustments to keep the student from getting off course.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
A friend of mine, who has actually got a job as principal trumpet in a major symphony orchestra, here in England, says he couldn't play A NOTE after doing this book course for 1 year!! Is it a bit extreme or not?

Sincerely.


Extreme, and doubtful.

I've heard folklore and legend about people saying their chops have been destroyed, or they knew a guy that ruined his chops, or wasn't able to play a note for years because of this or that.

Personally I don't think any of that is possible with out a serious injury like a damaging cut, or muscle damage or nerve damage.

Short of that, I say there's a lot of BS out there, especially amongst trumpet players. I don't think you can practice or play yourself into damaging detrimental oblivion.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Take it from me, yes you can! This book was extreme for me.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
Take it from me, yes you can! This book was extreme for me.

If a student starts having major issues with this (or any other approach), I'd stop and either change approaches or find a teacher qualified to instruct in that method.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Yes I agree. I can only speak of how I found CG myself.
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Pops
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No book will hurt you.
It is the lack of paying attention during practice that hurts them.

Some books are designed to push the envelope and that is needed. However; the player has a brain and is supposed to use it.

We can NEVER just mindlessly practice and NOT pay attention to what happens to our playing. He should have known the 1st day things went downhill and made adjustments.

We often need to do a little less or rest a little more or do warm downs like didgeridoo, tuba mouthpiece...

Trumpet playing is VERY mental and if you don't use the brain then you won't survive.

That said there are faster ways to build range because it is about starting notes more than holding out the note. WE need to start the note thousands of times to get the knack of playing it. THEN we hold the note to get more control. Then we play it in songs.
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Systematic Approach is Systematic, not extreme.

There are MANY likely wrong things that trumpet players do when they practice with Systematic Approach WITHOUT the guidance of a teacher who studied with Claude Gordon.

One:
They don't bother reading and putting into practice Claude's written instructions consistently.

Two:
They practice the pedal notes with an embouchure different from the setting they use in the mid to low register.

Three:
They practice the pedal notes BLASSTISSIMO!!!

Four:
They practice notes above the staff with an embouchure different from the setting they use in the mid to low register.


Five:
They practice the notes above the staff BLASSTISSIMO!!!

Six:
They practice ONLY the Part I and Part II portions of each lesson.

Seven:
They do not rest properly within their daily practice routine.

Eight:
They blame the book for their own lack of discipline and lack of application of practical wisdom.

Nine:
They simultaneously practice a system of exercises built on a pedagogical approach in opposition to the Gordon Approach.

Ten:
They don't practice consistently and daily.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Hi Pops. Yes what you say about range, I find Clarke is useful for that. Indeed, being able to do it gently and adding power later.
All the best.
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

add to that list

they probably don't rest as much as they play
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homebilly:

See "Seven" on my list.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

To Matt Graves: yea sure.....I can only speak for myself having studied at The Royal College of Music, London, and been a pro. Your points are all valid. However, in my experience teachers who preach this book basically say its their way or the highway! After all, there are many ways to be a good player. Also, different folks have different needs. Indeed, I found CG very extreme personally. I find other books encourage better habits. Lots of other pros don't even go near this book. I find Allen Vizzutti books more accessible and more musical.
Cheaper in price as well!!
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976:

To respond in Claude's own words, "There is no 'Gordon Method'."

The proper one word description is eclectic.

As for your remarks, "there are many ways to be a good player...different folks have different needs," Gordon tailored very reasonable practice routines for his students from all the time-tested, classic, well worn sources.

Claude passed down what he learned from Herbert L. Clarke and Louis Maggio.

Most teachers write out custom exercises for their students. Claude got tired of having to do that. That is part of how his books began.

Anyway, thank you kindly for your, "Your points are all valid."

Happy Playing.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
To Matt Graves: yea sure.....I can only speak for myself having studied at The Royal College of Music, London, and been a pro. Your points are all valid. However, in my experience teachers who preach this book basically say its their way or the highway! After all, there are many ways to be a good player. Also, different folks have different needs. Indeed, I found CG very extreme personally. I find other books encourage better habits. Lots of other pros don't even go near this book. I find Allen Vizzutti books more accessible and more musical.
Cheaper in price as well!!

For where I was in my comeback, long before I ever took lessons. I found the Vizzutti books a real benefit. It got me all over the horn but didn't tear me up. In retrospect, I think that used reasonably, it helps develop a good foundation in a mostly friendly way.

By contrast, Claude's books were to support players not just for a basic foundation, but for those striving for a very high level. This by definition is going to be higher impact.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

Cheers Matt Graves.
You too.
Best wishes.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
A friend of mine, who has actually got a job as principal trumpet in a major symphony orchestra, here in England, says he couldn't play A NOTE after doing this book course for 1 year!! Is it a bit extreme or not?

Sincerely.


I can well believe that.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher was a Gordon student and it a major advocate for that approach. But he also studied with many other teachers, most notably Jimmy Stamp. At one point in my lessons, he quipped that his approach to teaching was eclectic, tailored to each student's needs, but that in general. it was a somewhat lower impact version of what he learned from Claude. That tacitly acknowledges that he considered Claude's approach high impact.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure the OP's colleague's claims are if not dubious, a very gross exaggeration. I've never met a person who would be so foolish as to stick with a book a full year, until it eventually caused him not to be able to play "a single note". I mean, for gosh sake, was the guy able to play only perhaps one note the day before he finished the book?!?! Gimme a break...

Everything Matt said (and Ron's comment about resting as much as you play during the individual exercises which is one of the things Matt meant when he wrote his number Seven above) is as good as it gets. Pops and others wrote good stuff, too.

I'll add this: Claude wrote Systematic Approach fairly early in his career as a teacher. I think he did over-do it with how quickly the daily routine built up in the book. And he clearly realized this, too, as over the years, with experience, he slowed down how quickly he built up the routines of his personal students.

If one practices the SA book exactly as written and stays on each lesson for only one week (as the book instructs) most players will be over-practicing each day by the time they reach around Lesson 12 or so in the book. Those with sense will realize this and modify the routine or stay on lessons for more than one week. Others will (and do) crash and burn with the book.

The material and the progression in the book, including the assignments from the other books SA makes use of are brilliant and to this day have not been outdone by any other book. All that needs to be done to ensure success with the book is to stay on each Lesson for at least two weeks so it doesn't build up too quickly.

The best approach if one desires to use this method (that Claude claimed wasn't a method) though is to study personally with one of us who studied for years with Claude and have also learned from our own experiences as long-term pro players. This way, one gets assigned a personalized daily routine every few weeks based on exactly where that person is with his playing, and what particular areas of his playing he wants most to develop.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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