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Consistently Stiff Chops


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ampfau
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Consistently Stiff Chops Reply with quote

I'm new, so I don't really know where to post this but it seems most relevant here.
Quick story: one day, 7 months ago roughly, I put the horn up to my face and my chops seemed to clench up instantly. My teacher thought it was due to too much pressure from a previous practice session but he and I both know that my pressure issue was solved 2 years prior. I always warm up with long tones, lip slurs, and scales for 20-30 minutes. Ever since that day my lips have been incredibly stiff, and no amount of warming up gets my lips 'loose'. My tone quality is slowly degrading, I can't play arpeggios or any large intervals in short time frames, tonguing in general isn't an option, and in general notes HURT to play. I am generally very laid-back and calm but this is beyond frustrating. I threw my horn out of pure frustration, but at least it was an old horn. My playing just keeps getting worse and worse. But that's not my concern in this post.
What I am concerned about is my stiff chops. I've taken a week and a half break from trumpet but that did nothing to loosen my chops. A rash formed above my upper lip around the same time, which while I have eczema I know it isn't that. It won't go away. Could this and stiff chops be related to an allergy? If so, why did it only show up 7 months ago? I've been playing for years...
Thanks in advance to any responses
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Consistently Stiff Chops Reply with quote

ampfau wrote:
he and I both know that my pressure issue was solved 2 years prior.

I don't know if it's the root of your problem but I don't know that you can declare something permanently solved - could you be slipping into old habits?

"Seeming to clench up instantly" - can you describe more specifically what you mean?

If no amount of warmup gets you feeling right and it just suddenly appeared, it sounds like you either injured yourself or might be having a bad reaction to something or having some physical issue.

Video is always helpful.

You said a rash appeared at the same time - I'd suggest seeing a doctor.
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Last edited by Robert P on Tue May 16, 2017 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

30 minute warm ups seem extreme. I have no idea about your other physical issues or allergies etc

But 30 minutes of warm ups and long tones can be exhausting. Long tones are not my favorite exercise.

Maybe try a more brief warm up, and take it easy and see if there is improvement
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ampfau
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for feedback - "clench up" is not the right phrase. They just immediately felt stiff and inflexible.

While I do have very little recollection of the week of the issue, I do know that I let high notes go if they weren't sounding. My teacher has also mentioned that I don't play with enough pressure sometimes, and pressure is something I'm constantly thinking about. Who knows.

I have been tested for allergies and I am allergic to largely everything they tested except for cats and dogs so there may be potential there.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See a doctor to rule out medical conditions that you might have.

Also consider whether you might be worn down with embouchure overuse syndrome, which can cause your brain to reprogram the way your facial muscles support embouchure function. Once reprogrammed, all the rest in the world won't fix it--you have to go through a rehabilitation program to retrain your brain to allow normal embouchure function.

If you can rule out medical issues and embouchure overuse syndrome, then you might just need to work some response, flexibility and efficiency exercises into your routine, such as John Daniel Special Studies for Trumpet.

Good luck to you.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering reading through if you'd "solved" the pressure issue by reducing pressure too much - interesting that you say your teacher feels that's the case.
Overworked muscles might just be the main cause of the stiffness you describe. Silver plate allergies aren't impossible, and I'd certainly hope an allergy prone person wasn't using a nickel plated piece - it might be worth getting tested anyway but my bet would be the pressure.


There's a lot made of trying to play with no pressure - it's a goal to observe to avoid excessive pressure, but not a desirable destination IMHO...
The other (IMHO more helpful) way to look at pressure is a balancing act - if you let your chops relax too much and just mash them into your teeth that's obviously bad, but creating the seal with excessive lip-lip compression is going to cause fatigue too...

If you try to consciously play with pressure now, chances are you won't use as much as before anyway.



Who was it that said (paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "first comes no pressure, then no note, then no job"?
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a guy in my band that sounds like you. Can't get a note out at first. Needs long warm ups. Has difficulty playing a low G. I'm always amazed and he takes a lesson every week with a local expert. I've given him the John Daniel material. We've talked about relaxation. He still tenses up. What happens when you play low stuff? Does it come out relaxed and full?
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JVL
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
you have probably a leaky gut syndrom, maybe caused by bacterias o viruses, vaccins, antibiotics etc.
so, when you eat, moleculs not enough digest go through your intestin "wall", too much bigger not to be detected by your immunitary system.
And a lot of food become then nocive...
You should avoid those allergens, and have a treatment by a true good doctor, aware of these things...
I had such problems for more than 10 years, and my lips stopped to be stiff or swollen only when i was very far from lunch or dinner etc...and playing was problematic.
PM me if you want more infos....

Best
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be totally off the mark here and I apologise if that is the case.

I suspect intensity.
eczma can be exacerbated by nerves,
pressure can be the result of trying too hard
you threw the horn out of frustration,
allergies can show up in periods of stress
you practice a lot that can be the result of an intense desire to succeed

I get the impression that you may have intensity leading to stress leading to the symptoms of stress.

I am not the right person to diagnose this or to suggest a treatment but I feel you are doing the right thing by taking a break.

First try to relax and address the rash on your lip, visit a doctor get everything right health wise. Then talk things over with your teacher and ask if a gentle comeback program might help, keep things light with no agenda and see if this helps.

Sometimes things get so serious that going back to basics and starting over is the best way but first make sure you are fully fit and healthy first, it could for example all be due to being run down and the first stages of an illness.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really haven't given enough basic information to provide a good picture of what you're going through. You're frustrated and rushing to get right to the challenge and that is understandable. It would be helpful to know your age, your level of playing and performance requirements, how long you practice/perform each day, etc. Even more important, what were you working on or playing in the two weeks preceding the difficulties?

What you describe as a warmup sounds like a practice routine to me. Warming up gets you ready for the work. Long tone, lip slurs, and scales - depending on how and how much you do them - sounds like it could be part of the work.

With most practice techniques, buzzing, pedal tones. long tones, intervals, and so on, value depends on how you approach them, how long you do them, and how much rest is involved rather than which ones you employ. That may be a consideration.

As a shot in the dark, I wonder if an emphasis on less pressure has caused you to use your embouchure muscles too much as you might if you were free buzzing. If so, being gentle, treating the lips like a reed, and letting them ride on the air while adjusting naturally might be helpful. Still, just a shot in the dark. We don't have enough information.

I assume you've discussed this in detail with your teacher and he has organized a detailed practice regimen for you complete with sufficient rest. If not, you should do that immediately. If you have, without success, a couple of lessons with another teacher might be in order.

Best wishes,
Alan
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I always warm up with long tones, lip slurs, and scales for 20-30 minutes.


This is a problem , and a "high-effort" approach.

You need to do a more valve-slur and soft-attack based warm up. You probably have chronic overuse issues that you must recover from and then you need a new approach.

Contact me and I can guide you with more detail.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
I always warm up with long tones, lip slurs, and scales for 20-30 minutes.


This is a problem , and a "high-effort" approach.

You need to do a more valve-slur and soft-attack based warm up. You probably have chronic overuse issues that you must recover from and then you need a new approach.

Contact me and I can guide you with more detail.


That is a bold statement. You have no way of knowing if any of this is accurate.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
kalijah wrote:
Quote:
I always warm up with long tones, lip slurs, and scales for 20-30 minutes.


This is a problem , and a "high-effort" approach.

You need to do a more valve-slur and soft-attack based warm up. You probably have chronic overuse issues that you must recover from and then you need a new approach.

Contact me and I can guide you with more detail.


That is a bold statement. You have no way of knowing if any of this is accurate.


Agreed. And to take that further, I don't believe any of us can make a definitive diagnosis based on the info we have here. Sure, it's fine to speculate, and yes, the OP started the thread, but I doubt this is something that can be diagnosed on line. Which is why I almost never offer opinions on these type of discussions.

Brad
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veery715
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Step 1. Stop playing.
Step 2. See a doctor. Get thorough check up, and ask about your lips and facial muscles and eczema, and be honest with him/er about what you are experiencing. Consider overwork, diet, hydration, allergies.
Step 3. If clean bill of health, and progress towards relieving eczema, ask your teacher to refer you to another teacher, so you can benefit from another point of view.

Consider developing a program in stress reduction. You describe yourself as laid back and calm, but your post says otherwise. I can feel your stress all the way from here! Meditation, therapy, exercise, pursuing other interests - these can do more than help your playing, they can change your life.

If something IS wrong, attend to it. Loss of some playing time will be much less damaging to your playing career than a complete breakdown.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That is a bold statement. You have no way of knowing if any of this is accurate.


I did write "probably". So... Given he is otherwise fairly healthy this approach can result in excessive effort and chronic overuse. It is likely that the OP is fatigued in advance, fatigued even further with this so called "warm-up" (its actually a "wear-out", not a warm up)

Based on what he described this is my opinion.

Veery wrote:
Quote:
Meditation, therapy, exercise, pursuing other interests - these can do more than help your playing, they can change your life.


Absolutely. And there are ways to incorporate these into your practice and warm-up that are helpful.

I had an epiphany years ago on the golf range that I was able to incorporate into my playing with astonishing results.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Set the mouthpiece where it usually goes. Completely RELAX your lips, then breathe in. I suspect (but I can't see you play) that you are tensing or stretching your lips when you breathe in which severely limits the quality of the breath and makes it difficult for your lips to vibrate optimally.

1a. Make sure the breath is of substantial quality and quantity

2. In the warm up...lots of breaks. No more than 3-5 minutes before a 2-5 minute break.

3. If this approach works, when you finally "feel loose and fresh" play only 2 minutes longer and then put the horn away for at least an hour. This will help transition you to playing on "better feeling" chops.

Ultimately make it sound good (meaning lots of listening to professionals in order to feed the imagination) and the chops become moot.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been tested for allergies and I am allergic to largely everything they tested except for cats and dogs so there may be potential there.

the OP didn't talk about eczema. The food allergies very often induce lip swelling, not talking about the worst : Quinck oedema.
So i think it's a serious track to follow.
Of course we can't diagnose.
And there's nothing wrong about what Kalijah wrote. At one step or another, it should also help.
Best
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Veery715 advices are worth too
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Consistently Stiff Chops Reply with quote

ampfau wrote:
I'm new, so I don't really know where to post this but it seems most relevant here.
Quick story: one day, 7 months ago roughly, I put the horn up to my face and my chops seemed to clench up instantly. My teacher thought it was due to too much pressure from a previous practice session but he and I both know that my pressure issue was solved 2 years prior. I always warm up with long tones, lip slurs, and scales for 20-30 minutes. Ever since that day my lips have been incredibly stiff, and no amount of warming up gets my lips 'loose'. My tone quality is slowly degrading, I can't play arpeggios or any large intervals in short time frames, tonguing in general isn't an option, and in general notes HURT to play. I am generally very laid-back and calm but this is beyond frustrating. I threw my horn out of pure frustration, but at least it was an old horn. My playing just keeps getting worse and worse. But that's not my concern in this post.
What I am concerned about is my stiff chops. I've taken a week and a half break from trumpet but that did nothing to loosen my chops. A rash formed above my upper lip around the same time, which while I have eczema I know it isn't that. It won't go away. Could this and stiff chops be related to an allergy? If so, why did it only show up 7 months ago? I've been playing for years...
Thanks in advance to any responses


Someone else noted the 30 minute warm up. Seems excessive. Granted I cant see you without a video but this post of yours seems to suggest a classic case of over-trained chops.

You either own the horn or it owns you. Apparently various elements are combining here to throw your chops and along with them your mental approach to the game completely out of gear.

And it doesnt take much to throw the chops and/or body out of synch with your music.

A bad cold,
Kanker sores,
Sharp edged mouthpieces typical of Bach,
Overly deep mouthpieces,
Numerous gigs & rehearsals,
Excessive practice and more?

Can accumulate to induce stiff, swollen, abused chops. Even if you don't use excessive arm pressure. However it may still be a possibility that you're jamming the horn and just aren't aware of it.

My first suggestion would be to get some rest. Several days-no playing at all. Give those swollen, stiff chops a chance to return to their natural condition. And upon returning to playing again?

Plan and execute a system which will reduce the physical load placed on your chops. Also, Remember that the usage abd promotion of overly large/deep mouthpieces is still a common meme. And in most performances there is little need to use such huge pieces.

Working with a true medium sized mouthpiece without any sharp edges seems well advized here. Marcinkiewicz has done a great job of creating standard mouthpieces which dont create the horrific trauma that sharp edged pieces do. Just like those overly flat contour rims such as Bach and even Schilke sell.

The whole concept which I promote is for the trumpet player to always be building a deeper reserve. While there are some advantages to really large mouthpieces I am still able to eliminate them from over 3/4's of all my classical ensemble work and 100 eliminated from all my other work.

But when I do choose to utilize a deep, large mouthpiece??

I go really huge. Like my full sized flugel horn mouthpiece slipped into my cornet. Either that or put my favorite flugel piece into a cornet x trumpet adapter and then put in my trumpet.

The main difference between my equipment and yours probably is that I will never allow a sharp edged mouthpiece to touch my lips. Never.

Build reserve, dont steal from it!
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falado
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, is the rim of your mouthpiece worn to raw brass. I had a similar problem years ago that turned out to be brass poisoning. But, unlike yours, it was accompanied with swelling of the upper lip. Hence the stiffness.

Dave
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