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MP buzz to actual trumpet pitch



 
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject: MP buzz to actual trumpet pitch Reply with quote

I've heard different opinions but I still don't clearly understand if there is a direct correspondence between what pitch we buzz on a MP and what pitch comes out of the trumpet bell.

Suppose I want to directly transfer a 2-octave range from the MP buzz to trumpet. I start with the low C and end up on the high C.
Does it work like this:

- I buzz the low C on a MP alone, then I connect the trumpet and changing nothing in the way I blow I hear the low C.
- I buzz the middle C on a MP alone, then I connect the trumpet and changing nothing in the way I blow I hear the middle C.
- I buzz... the high C? - actually there is no way I can buzz the high C, but assume I can set-up my lips exactly for the high C (don't ask me how I do it) and changing nothing in the way I blow I hear the high C.

For any notes in between the low C and the middle C (and beyond) I have to apply correct fingering but other than that I constantly raise my MP pitch a semitone up and I hear the corresponding trumpet pitch.

Is that the way how it's supposed to work?

If that's how it works I have another interesting question.
I don't see why there would be impossible to buzz the middle C and while buzzing connect the trumpet that's fingered as middle D, a step higher. In which case I have no doubts that middle D will come out of the bell.
I can of course proceed in the same manner higher and couple more notes should be available without any MP buzz adjustment. Or not?

I suspect since there is a greater distance between slots in the lower register compared to those in the higher register this "wrong fingering" (or "wrong buzz", depending on how you look at it) method should work better up higher.

Anyway, my main question is still about whether we shoud match the MP buzz to the trumpet pitch.
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would hear the same pitch you are buzzing, but with a crappy uncharacteristic trumpet tone because the mouthpiece buzz is not the same as playing the instrument.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
You would hear the same pitch you are buzzing, but with a crappy uncharacteristic trumpet tone because the mouthpiece buzz is not the same as playing the instrument.


So, it then doesn't make much sense to do MP exercises in pitch with the intention to transfer the MP buzz pitch to trumpet sound pitch?
By saying that I don't suggest to discard MP buzz exercises altogether (althoug I'm sure the will be some who say that it's mostly useless).

In other words - are they two separate skills? What's the benefit of being a skillful MP buzzer except for the skill itself?
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snichols
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
PH wrote:
You would hear the same pitch you are buzzing, but with a crappy uncharacteristic trumpet tone because the mouthpiece buzz is not the same as playing the instrument.


So, it then doesn't make much sense to do MP exercises in pitch with the intention to transfer the MP buzz pitch to trumpet sound pitch?
By saying that I don't suggest to discard MP buzz exercises altogether (althoug I'm sure the will be some who say that it's mostly useless).

In other words - are they two separate skills? What's the benefit of being a skillful MP buzzer except for the skill itself?


It's not about becoming a "skilled mouthpiece buzzer", but rather what buzzing the mouthpiece gets you to do. When buzzing the mouthpiece, it forces and conditions you to be accurate with pitch (so you'll find the center of notes better), to keep your chops focused, and to blow with plenty of relaxed air. Sometimes players will use the valves as a crutch and try to let the buttons find the right pitch. A pianist can get away with letting their fingers find the pitch, but we don't really have that luxury. The trumpet can forgive you a certain amount so that maybe the right note comes out, but it might be masking some off-center pitch, tension, etc.

Mouthpiece buzzing is an exercise that builds in some good habits (pitch, focus, air) that will then ideally transfer over to playing on the instrument. That's why if you buzz a line (with a good, clean buzz and accurate pitch) a few times and play it right after, your sound on the horn will tend to sound more open, relaxed, and centered. Again, the buzzing just forces you to focus on a few particular aspects so that you can transfer that feeling to the trumpet.

I think it's similar to a golfer putting a towel under his arm while taking practice shots. He's not going to actually play with a towel under his arm, but it's an exercise to get him to swing with good habits (in that case, keeping your elbow close to your body).
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<In other words - are they two separate skills? What's the benefit of being a skillful MP buzzer except for the skill itself?>

It can help with ear training.
Singing will do the same thing.
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gchun01
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matching the pitch between mpc buzz alone with the pitch of the Mpc on the horn can reveal if we are playing in the center of the pitch, which is usually where the sound most resonant.

For me, I used to playing "tight' and on the high side of the slots while in the upper register. This exercise helped me bring the focus to the center of pitch, which is more resonant, is more in tune, has more overtones and blends better with other players. It also resulted in less facial fatigue.

I used this mindset while using exercises by Jimmy Maxwell and also by Rene Lamart in his CADET method.
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
PH wrote:
You would hear the same pitch you are buzzing, but with a crappy uncharacteristic trumpet tone because the mouthpiece buzz is not the same as playing the instrument.


So, it then doesn't make much sense to do MP exercises in pitch with the intention to transfer the MP buzz pitch to trumpet sound pitch?
By saying that I don't suggest to discard MP buzz exercises altogether (althoug I'm sure the will be some who say that it's mostly useless).

In other words - are they two separate skills? What's the benefit of being a skillful MP buzzer except for the skill itself?


1) It's great ear training. (But so is singing.)
2) It does engage and develop many of the muscles involved in playing the instrument. It just engages them in a different way that is not directly transferrable to the way they are engaged when playing (It is a question of balance.).
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at it like this:

If I could buzz the mpc, I could probably play the horn, and that would be preferable. Buzzing the lips is far more strenuous (and arguably less related to playing) but can be done in situations where I couldn't practice.

I find my lip buzzing is an octave lower than what is produced on the horn, and going back and forth with a steady airstream has some benefit.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the good answers. I'm getting closer to understanding of my question but I'm still not there.

So, it sounds like it actually makes sense to match directly the MP buzz to the actual trumpet pitch?
Say I'm buzzing some melodic figure. Should I think: "I'm starting on a middle G (concert F) and going up to middle C (concert Bb) in quarter notes" -?

After that, should I somehow retain the "overall sensation" (sorry, can't find a better term) while also keeping in my mind that I'm not going to replicate the actual buzz on trumpet and match this walk up on trumpet to the preceeding MP buzz walk up?

What is a good way to do pitch matching? Some midi sounds? I don't think it's convenient (though perfectly doable) to hold the MP in the right hand and while buzzing play the desired pitch on a piano with the left hand.
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snichols
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
Thank you for the good answers. I'm getting closer to understanding of my question but I'm still not there.

So, it sounds like it actually makes sense to match directly the MP buzz to the actual trumpet pitch?
Say I'm buzzing some melodic figure. Should I think: "I'm starting on a middle G (concert F) and going up to middle C (concert Bb) in quarter notes" -?

After that, should I somehow retain the "overall sensation" (sorry, can't find a better term) while also keeping in my mind that I'm not going to replicate the actual buzz on trumpet and match this walk up on trumpet to the preceeding MP buzz walk up?

What is a good way to do pitch matching? Some midi sounds? I don't think it's convenient (though perfectly doable) to hold the MP in the right hand and while buzzing play the desired pitch on a piano with the left hand.


Yes, you'll want to strive for buzzing the exact pitches you want to come out of the horn. But I would avoid thinking too much about trying to "emulate" or "match" the sensation. Put most of your focus into making a clean, on-pitch buzz, and just do a few repetitions (buzzed) of the line your practicing. Then just put the mouthpiece in the horn and give it a go. You should be able to hear and feel the difference right away.

I suppose you could use a midi device, but personally I think something like that is actually more fussing around than the piano method you described. You could even just put a drone on your tuner and buzz against that, hearing when the intervals lock in.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:
... But I would avoid thinking too much about trying to "emulate" or "match" the sensation.
...


I trust you and it's not hard to accept that. As you and PH noted buzzing is not the same thing as playing the horn.
Of course trumpet has some resistance added and that makes it playing the horn a different experience.

So we agree that the sensation of playing the same pitch on the MP and the actual horn is different. I wonder how different?
It's easy to imagine that buzzing the same pitch, especially higher up the scale takes noticeably more effort than playing it on the horn.
Does it mean that buzzing the MP alone prepares us to play higher notes on the actual trumpet in terms of sensation?
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think tires on the football field for practice. No tires on the field during the game. Practicing jumping in and out of tires before the game will help prepare the muscles to make football moves during the game.

It really isn't important to understand why this works. If you want to learn to be a player, buzzing is a useful tool. It is also better than just singing since it engages all the muscles used in trumpet playing, plus it sets the lips to vibrating.

Singing is definitely helpful. Do them both. Don't over think them.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, it sounds like it actually makes sense to match directly the MP buzz to the actual trumpet pitch?


Not exactly.

If you want to match pitches on the piano as a listening exercise, do so.

However, buzzing requires more embouchure effort and air pressure effort than playing the instrument.

The more efficient your playing with the instrument is, the lower the associated mouthpiece-only pitch will be relative to the tone with the instrument. If there is a tone at all. For accomplished and efficient players this can be more or less an octave for sufficiently loud tones. Softer tones will produce no mp tone.

For reasonably low and soft notes, there should be NO BUZZ (air flow only) when the instrument is removed while the embouchure and air pressure is held exactly the same. (This takes sufficient self control not to increase the effort to keep a buzz going.) The higher and louder the instrument tones that this threshold of no buzz tone is, the more efficient your playing is.

You can also practice to buzz more efficiently. With a more closed, low-effort embouchure. If you can "play" the mp more efficiently, with progressively less effort. Then your playing efficiency will correspondingly increase. I have particular ways to accomplish this.
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pc2001197
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the best trombone player in the world's take on mouthpiece buzzing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5fow-pf68
I do not agree with him since I am a firm believer of buzzing. I do Thomspon's buzzing basics everyday. I find it helps me to center the core of my sound and keeps my air engaged.
No two people play exactly the same and different methods help different players. It's trial and error for the most time. Try it for a while and see if it changes your playing. If not you can just drop it.
Just my 2¢
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is this

A trumpet is a modulating instrument if you feed into it a tone that is centred on pitch then the tone coming out of the instrument will be centred and resonant. If you feed a note in that is off pitch the trumpet will still sound the pitch but it will slightly muffled, - it will be modulated to the pitch by the instrument.

When you drift further off pitch there comes a point when the tone will jump to the next modulated pitch lower or higher.

The trumpet will be constantly modulating the tone and our task is to keep the tones centred.

A mouthpiece is an unmodulating instrument, in other words, you can glissade frely and the mouthpiece will not interfere with the tone and unlike a trumpet there will be no jumping from pitch to pitch as you glissade.

What this means is you can use mouthpiece buzzing to improve your pitch centering since any drifting of the pitch can be heard immediately where in the trumpet it would be hidden due to modulation.

The downside is that you have to have good hearing to detect when you drift off centre. But we all have good hearing dont we.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pc2001197 wrote:
Here is the best trombone player in the world's take on mouthpiece buzzing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5fow-pf68


My experience is not exactly the same. At very soft volumes, pp, the pitch on the horn does turn to air when removing the mouthpiece from the horn. But at higher volumes, like mp and louder, the pitch of the buzz (in the mouthpiece) is seamless between horn and mouthpiece only going slightly higher (about a whole step) when removing the mouthpiece from the horn. This works the same in either direction: mouthpiece to horn or horn to mouthpiece.

For me, the mouthpiece is way less tiring to play than the horn.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone. Lots of interesting opinions and insights.
From what I've read I can make a conclusion that MP buzzing can be a useful exercise if done properly and efficiently and the measure of their efficiency is improvement of playing abilities on the horn.
I can also conclude that there is no need to think of buzzing on the MP alone as a direct means of sound production on the horn.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bingo.

Mouthpiece buzzing can be useful, but in the same way that the best practice for cake baking is baking a cake, and the best practice for ditch digging is digging a ditch, the best practice for trumpet playing turns out to be playing the trumpet.

So far tone production appears to have taken a back seat to buzz creation.

It has been said that Uan Racey when teaching would make a student practice perfect tone production of one single tone for a solid hour.

Tone production is of critical importance in trumpet playing and no amount of mouthpiece buzzing will let you perfect a tone.

Use mouthpiece buzzing as an aid to good buzzing habits and use it sparingly, the real practice, the important practice is trumpet practice.
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Pops
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouthpiece buzzing is just a tool.

It helps us to find problems that are sometimes hidden from US by the trumpet. (Many many people listening to you play will hear the problems but we can't hear it as well behind the horn.)

The mouthpiece lets US hear the same problem that others in the audience can hear when we play. It shows more than just pitch centering. You can also hear tonguing problems much easier than when you play. Other things too but when you mouthpiece buzz and really LISTEN then you will find what it can do.

It is a great tool to diagnose problems.
It is an exercise but NOT the end result.
Playing is the end result.
Mouthpiece buzzing shouldn't last for more than 4 to 8 measures at a time and then immediately followed by playing the same thing on the trumpet.
If you don't follow up by playing on the trumpet (within) a minute then you wasted 90% of what it can do to help you.

Just like there are right ways and wrong ways to lift weights, do sprints, practice your golf swing... there are right and wrong ways to mouthpiece buzz.

Never do a siren (gliss) on the mouthpiece unless you are working on doing a gliss when playing. Remember the immediately play the same thing on the trumpet rule. Just doing a gliss (siren) and not playing it on the trumpet loses 90% of the possible benefit. And yes almost everybody does it WRONG but then most people waste a lot of their practice time by doing things that they don't need to do because of their current skill set.
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