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HCI or 48B or Recording?


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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: HCI or 48B or Recording? Reply with quote

I just unloaded a Courtois and have some trumpet money jangling around in my pocket. Over the years I've yearned for an Olds Recording and a Conn 48B. And I've recently become enamored of the Handcraft Imperial from Martin. All are within my budget.

What considerations go along with each one? What is each good for? One type of playing I don't need to consider strongly is lead playing.

I realize I'm not really stating any needs beyond lack of lead playing, but that shouldn't stop people from opining on one or more of these horns.

Thanks for your collective time.

Peter
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Evinerate
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good options here,

I've had all three horns at one point.

The Olds Recording,

Very popular horn, I'm sure many would choose this horn over the Conn or the MCI due to the popularity of this horn.

Very warm sound color with Bach 3C, sound color can change with mouthpieces, balanced design and offset 2nd valve makes this horn even more special. Built like a tank also as with most Olds horns of that era. I've seen players use it for many different playing situations, lead as well.


The Martin Handcraft Imperial,

I consider this trumpet the "Poor Man's Martin Handcraft Committee", because it plays real similar to the Handcraft Committee, slotting is still loose but not overly loose like the Committee. Warm rich fat Martin sound, O feel that if a player doesn't fancy the Committes's slotting, the Martin HCI would be more manageable for them. Whether or not you have the "M" bell version or the other versions, I feel they have desireable playing qualities.


Conn 48B Conqueror,

A very unique larger bell and wrap version of the Vocabells, also pretty heavy. I think the brass walling is thicker, very unique water key design, bottom sprung valves are nice and fast (the one I had at least), the horn has a very broader dense tone, I wouldn't call it "dark" but it certainly isn't piercing or overly bright like the peashooter version of this horn. I would say this horn is the least popular of the 2 horns above but very special as well.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much!
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Connstellation 7B-N mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece

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The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
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so what
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: HCI or 48B or Recording? Reply with quote

The Olds Recording is a great trumpet. Great rich sound. Fun to play. Look for one with tight valves. I've played a dozen of them. Different, but all good. Strangely, one of the good ones has a broken solder on the brace between the mouth pipe and bell, before the valves. Who knows what difference that makes. Although I would look for one from LA, I think they are all good.

I remember looking in the window at Volkweins in Pittsburgh in the late 60s thinking that Olds Recording is one of the prettiest trumptets I've ever seen. Didn't play one then, bought a Benge from Jerry Callet then. A great horn, too. Later, I've grown to appreciate the Olds trumpets and cornets. The Recording is a gem. Certainly worth a try. They sell well if you don't like it.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All interesting horns. The one trait they have in common is that none of them will blend in a modern section - so you may want to keep that in mind.

HandCraft Imperial is a magnificent old horn that really exemplifies the best of the Depression-era horns. It comes the closest to blending into a modern sound, and is comparable to a Conn orchestral trumpet of the same period. For Martin, it was a notable horn in that it was less dance-hall oriented than the Superlative, Symphony, Dansant (a Symphony variant), and the short-lived New Master, and a step up from the more traditional Standard and New Symphony models. There is little doubt that the Martin Committee, in its original form, drew much from the Imperial - cross pollinated with Schilke ideas from Holton and the Llewellyn. I should point out that the original Committee (pre-WWII) was not the loose slotting Committee of post-WWII design.

The 48B is an unusual horn. It is in a class with the other Conn experiments of its time, mixing leading edge ideas with extreme cost-thrifting in manufacture. It has some pea-shooter-esque characteristics visually, but is clearly not one of them. Tonally, it is darket than you would expect, and, at least for me, a bit hard to control when pushing. The sound is distinctly of that era, bearing little resemblance to anything that came after.

The Olds Recordings are amazing if they work for you. For some players, a dream horn, for others, an immediate pass. The particular high-copper brass used in the Recording line was used in different weights for different effect between the cornets, trumpets and trombones of the line. That alloy is unique, and I suspect with the passing of Zig Kanstul, there is no-one left with the knowledge of exactly what it is. The recording responds and feels very different from other horns, and if you like that feel, its fantastic - I don't. I find the feeling on a Recording to be one of lack of confidence that what I want is going to happen. That, however, can easily be seen as the fault of the less capable player (me) rather than the horn. Its like a Dodge Viper - you have to have exceptional skills to make it perform, but if you do, it does (and if you don't you wipe out). However, it will not blend with anything else, so its a soloistic use horn only.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not ignore the Buescher 400. Arguably a better horn than all mentioned in its first incarnation of Model 225 with the nickel-silver mouthpipe and competitively priced. The sound is rich and full and even from top to bottom and can go from smoky jazz to screaming rock with little effort. Plus, a more gorgeous horn you will never see.

Somewhat rare, but worth the search. Trent Austin occasionally has them or can find one for you.

Tom
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a ‘65 Recording, so I can only speak to that: IMO,it’s very versatile, has a rich sound (that can also project well), has secure slots without feeling stiff or rigid, it just sort of locks into a pitch unlike many horns I have used. The offset second valve and balanced construction for me was not (surprisingly) difficult to get used to, I could take or leave the third slide trigger. And yes, it’s built SOLID.

Brad
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so far everyone for your helpful help.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

The Olds Recordings are amazing if they work for you. For some players, a dream horn, for others, an immediate pass... ...However, it will not blend with anything else, so its a soloistic use horn only.


I know a guy over here in the Netherlands who did his examn on the Amsterdam Conservatorium on a Olds Recording. He used this horn for years in symphonic orchestra's, opera and operetta orchestra's and brass ensambles.
He blended very well with the Recording.
I think if you can play well and the Recording suits you you can use it for whatever you want
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would say that all of them would blend in any modern section. If there is any issue with blending it id not because of the horns. All three are normal sounding trumpets. All three play a bit differently, but the difference from one Olds recording to a particular conn 48b would be about the same as from one olds recording to another olds recording. Just like all brands basically.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
i would say that all of them would blend in any modern section. If there is any issue with blending it id not because of the horns. All three are normal sounding trumpets. All three play a bit differently, but the difference from one Olds recording to a particular conn 48b would be about the same as from one olds recording to another olds recording. Just like all brands basically.


Thanks Lips. I'd admire to hear anything more you have to say about the horns in general

Peter
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Connstellation 7B-N mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece

www.jazzscales.org

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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're all great horns


Is it worth considering which is easiest to shift again?
Let's say you buy one of these and it's just not quite your cup of tea - if you bought the Recording, you'll have plenty of interest fairly quickly which means you shouldn't have to wait too long to make your money back on it... if being able to get back off and onto something that suits you better is a consideration, perhaps that would give a recording the edge over the other two?
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
They're all great horns


Is it worth considering which is easiest to shift again?
Let's say you buy one of these and it's just not quite your cup of tea - if you bought the Recording, you'll have plenty of interest fairly quickly which means you shouldn't have to wait too long to make your money back on it... if being able to get back off and onto something that suits you better is a consideration, perhaps that would give a recording the edge over the other two?


Good point for consideration. Thanks!
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Connstellation 7B-N mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece

www.jazzscales.org

The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 48B and an Olds Recording.

The 48B is a lot of fun to play and it's a well made horn. Of course, the design is very unique/artistic but dated. If you can find one in good condition with the "Pan" engraving it's an awesome piece of art.

The Recording is an excellent and well built horn you could use for anything.

Between the 48B and the Recording, for all around playing I'd pick the Recording and for just having fun and owning something very unique I'd pick the 48B.

I have no experience with a Handcraft Imperial. I do, however, have a 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe. I really don't know how similar or different the two horns are. I can tell you only that the Martin Committee is a great jazz horn. For all around playing, however, I'd take the Recording over the Martin Committee and for just having fun I'd take the 48B over the Martin Committee. For solo jazz, however, I'd take the Martin Committee over both the Recording and the 48B.
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king leopardi
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had all three at one time or another. Out of these, I would recommend the Olds Recording (in terms of overall sound and resale value), although the Handcraft Imperial would be a close second. The 48B is a cool looking trumpet, but I am not overly fond of the sound or the clickless style valves.

As a sidenote, my theory is that the Handcraft Imperial descended from the Martin Dansant. The Dansants that you usually see are the ones from the 1920s with the small diameter bells. However, I had a Martin Handcraft Dansant from around 1932-33 that closely resembled the Martin Handcraft Imperial from slightly later. I was lucky enough to own both and they were very comparable in build. They both even had that wrapping banner style of engraving that you see on the Imperials from that time.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
i would say that all of them would blend in any modern section. If there is any issue with blending it id not because of the horns. All three are normal sounding trumpets. All three play a bit differently, but the difference from one Olds recording to a particular conn 48b would be about the same as from one olds recording to another olds recording. Just like all brands basically.


And the bar fell silent, save for the sound of Lipshurt's spurs as he slowly strode out.
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Connstellation 7B-N mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece

www.jazzscales.org

The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
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Zman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

king leopardi wrote:

I had a Martin Handcraft Dansant from around 1932-33 that closely resembled the Martin Handcraft Imperial from slightly later. I was lucky enough to own both and they were very comparable in build. They both even had that wrapping banner style of engraving that you see on the Imperials from that time.

This horn was one of the transition models - it probably had the reversed tuning slide setup too (Or perhaps you are confusing it with a Martin Handcraft Standard model which had the same engraving as the pre 1938 Handcraft Imperials) But the horn you described exists - but is quite scarce.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
Do not ignore the Buescher 400. Arguably a better horn than all mentioned in its first incarnation of Model 225 with the nickel-silver mouthpipe and competitively priced. The sound is rich and full and even from top to bottom and can go from smoky jazz to screaming rock with little effort. Plus, a more gorgeous horn you will never see.

Somewhat rare, but worth the search. Trent Austin occasionally has them or can find one for you.

Tom


Rich Ita has a restored Buescher 400 for $800. Also the rest of these in stock, I think.

Tom
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I would throw my hat in the ring.

My 1936 HCI has basically become my main horn. It is outstanding. A chameleon... you can really change your sound a lot on them - legit/commercial/jazz whatever! It has probably the best tuning of any horn I have owned (hint, more than a "few").

I've never played a 48B, so have to pass on commenting on it specifically. I have owned a 22B, 38B, 60B, 17B and 28A cornet. The Conns are superb instruments, and I have a real fondness for them. They (with maybe the exception of the 22B I had) all have quite a low 1st slide, so 4th line D, Db was troublesome. The HCI is bang on!!

I have owned a few Olds horns. I am very familiar with recordings. They are quite a dark horn, and often need their valve alignment sorted to play well. You might get a deal if it is a dog and the alignment is off. The sound is almost diffuse in its darkness. It is relatively open blowing and a beauty to behold. Less versatile - IMO - than the HCI. I'll probably pick one up in a few years to add to the flock (they all get used tho!!)

Hopefully this little video may give you an idea of the HCI. Excuse my playing


Link


Best,
Mike
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I owned a 48B. Weird horn. Played funny. Took it to Charlie Melk. He couldn't make it not play funny. Sold it. Why did it play funny? We couldn't figure it out.

Probably not all of them are like that.

Traded it for a 14B. MUCH better horn. If its intonation wasn't just slightly different from the Bueschers I would have kept it. Drove me nuts trying to play it. Totally different intonation I think I could have dealt with.

Tom
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