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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Why vintage trumpets are better? |
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I'm trying to get a consensus from some guys with this statement:
Why vintage trumpets are better.
It seems to me, that older horns I've come across, from NY and Mt Vernon Bach, Benges, older Kanstul, Bessons, Selmers, Conn, Schilke, King, Getzen, Buescher, etc etc all seem to just have a more quality feel, sound, intonation and build than modern trumpets. It's not just heft or weight, as some older horns are more heavy, but then some are super light.
Do you think it's due to materials, smaller build staff, more attention to details due to smaller production, or is it all in my head. I haven't played or owned a modern instrument build passed the early 70s I've really "enjoyed" playing like I do with these older horns.
Modern horns just feel like everything else modern. More mass produced, cheaper, and less life and personality in the horns.
Am I off base, or am I on to something here. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Just to throw up on more possibility that you haven't listed...
Maybe, like Rafael Mendez, you simply like the feel of a valveblock that's well worn in and doesn't have perfect compression anymore? |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12657 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I think it is due to nostalgia and imagination.
In other words, I think the premise that "vintage trumpets are better" is faulty.
On an individual instrument basis, most vintage instruments are in fact worse and require money to be spent bringing them back to life. There are exceptions.
If you are comparing the vintage model lines to current model lines, I don't think that the premise really applies either. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Vintage versus new |
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The technology that exists today was unheard of in the old days and as good as some vintage horns played, there is no way fit and finish would be equal. CNC machines keep tolerances consistent and where your older horn might blow well higher up, it's almost a certainty the response in the low register will have some "woofish" qualities. That said, the custom makers building horns today have a major advantage in selecting components and can fine tune a horn's playing characteristics for the individual player. Personal experience with many old horns has proven to me time and time again the advantages of better tolerances. I have a 1937 Selmer Balanced 24B in as new condition which plays very well and used it as a model to base my Scodwell USA re-creation Balanced model on. Both have similar playing characteristics but top to bottom response is far superior on the new horn. Certainly this is my opinion, but having been at this for many years, I think I speak with some expertise.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it's just nostalgia and longing of a different time passed.
I think I need to find a time machine. Post war USA would be my destination. So much better music, style, fashion, class and respect. Everything was new, and there was so much optimism!!
I agree about some of the smaller modern boutique trumpet makers. But some of the big guys cranking out horns? CNC stuff, close tolerances, faster build time...whatever. Those horns just feel lifeless to me.
I like the stuff coming out of Europe I've played recently, but most US and Asian horns....yawn!! I'm glad the smaller makers are still building great horns!! |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Too many variables to make a blanket determination between old and new. It's personal preference. Older horns will have wear or will have been refurbished. Either one changes the horn. Some people like the feel of new horns with tight slides and valves. Most manufactures have gone through times where their materials and/or parts sources are different. Also workers' skills and attitudes come and go. Most manufacturers have had great and not so great eras for various reasons.
I have heard that the quality of raw brass (alloy) has changed over the years....not for the better. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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The saying "they don't build 'em like they used to" is a lie. They do still build 'em like they used to.
Things that are well made, beautiful, and treasured endure.
The junk of today lasts as long as the junk of yesteryear. The only reason we don't see so many junky old horns is that they were crushed, thrown out, or melted down long ago. Time is a winnower.
This holds true for all kinds of things -- from music (only a fraction of music written survives to be played again), to cars (anyone want a Yugo or a K-car?). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Well, for me it's this simple;
Some old horns are good and some bad.
Some new horns are good and some bad. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm a huge vintage horn lover, and not just trpts. Each has a sound that's unique, and that alone is worth the exploration and preferential treatment, however, playability? New horns will always have the edge there, such as the new Bachs (all good), But, and that's a big BUT, a valve job, alignment and perhaps a modern leadpipe/mpc will make the old horn like new. I had that experience with my NY Bach and my Olds, on every level (and without a new pipe).
ed |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1825 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Part of it may be "memory". I have a sound in my head of the way a cornet and a trumpet should sound and articulate - based on the horns I had as a teenager. Tastes trumpets may have changed - I don't think current mass produced horns match that "sound" I hear.
If a horn approaches that sound and feel, I can usually tolerate it's flaws.
Modern mass produced trumpets are extremely consistent. Older instruments had a lot more variation. With that variation came the chance that you might find a "magic" horn among the OK and the occasional dog.
Perhaps most of the OK horns and dogs have long since been chopped for parts leaving the intact "magic" horns to be passed down for you to purchase.
[Please note that I am referring to mass produced trumpets - not custom and customized horns.] |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9345 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: |
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I have a couple old Conns that were closet queens - still look like new, no dents, no repairs, no wear to the valves, original finish. One is a 1960 6B Victor trumpet and the other is a 1962 9A Victor cornet. They are wonderful-playing instruments, an accurate taste of the past without wondering what wear and rebuilds did to them. I have played a few modern mass-produced instruments that were equals to these, and many that weren't. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: |
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The vintage horns that played bad were either fixed or scrapped.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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patdublc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1050 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Lots of good replies here. I, too, think that "vintage horns are better" is a false statement. I have some vintage horns that I love for various reasons, but my day to day horns are all modern. Today's technology has really changed the game. _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: |
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They don't make 'em like they used to and they never did. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | They don't make 'em like they used to and they never did. |
Sounds like a Yogi quote! When you come to a fork in the road...take iit!! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: |
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As others have said here, I don't really think horns built in "the good old days", necessarily have an edge on today's equipment....unless the individual player believes they do, then the good old placebo affect might come into play. My LA Benge IS a great horn in my opinion, but it also required a valve rebuild (by Doctor Valve....excellent job) shortly after I got it. So yeah, NOW it's great, maybe it also was years ago, but I had to put some money into it to get it to where it is (or maybe was), I also had Flip Oakes do his enhancement on it.
On the other hand, my WT that I bought new from Flip played great (for me; this is NOT a "all hail the Wild Thing" comment😉) played great from day one, my Carol Brass plays VERY well also.
As others said, I think you can find a gem or a dog from almost any era, "vintage" does not necessarily equate better any more than "new" does.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree that vintage instruments are better, if playing them is the goal. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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there is very very little about trumpet design that has been improved since the 1930-1960 period. There are new ways to fabricate the parts, but those just make the parts cheaper not "better". Assembly can be of any quality modern or vintage. Valve fit and construction is not better, except on the average with newer methods.
where modern horns lack is in variety. Almost every horn now on the market is based made to look play and feel like a bach. That includes yamaha, B&S, and if it plays great its because it plays like like a great Mt. Vernon or new york, or "early Elkhart" Bach.
Some other "Modern" horns are based on benge/besson, with the same goal in mind.
Monette is one of the modern companies that is different, but even months are not that radically different from another horn.
In the "vintage" era, you could find trumpets with complete different wraps (conn New era, Conn wide wrap, york airflow etc) and radically different bore sizes from .438 to .485, which is radically different from what some people call modern.
all the bach bells and lead pipes were designed before 1945 or so. Now those are cloned by everyone. the valve design "everyone" uses now goes to 1895 or so with Besson.
The martin committee was (is?) a modern design but is from about 1946 or so.
the conn connstellation was really modern with all kinds of new things (even included a patent on what we now call the "gap". thats from the late 1950's.
so when you compare modern to vintage, you are really just comparing vintage to vintage.
everyone should read Brad Goode's article on "the lost art of trumpet design"
By the way, vintage horns have better intonation than most Bach copies, because bach was about the least in tune of the designs from that era.
Conn, buescher, king, all had way better intonation than bach. Or at least somewhat better. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 724 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Vintage vs Modern? All of the Bb horns that I own were very "modern" and current at the time I purchased them. They are mostly "vintage" now, but so am I. My Benge was the first new trumpet that I owned and it still plays very well. Even with the mileage that's on it, compression is still very good though the valves are in need of replating. My Yamaha is not as old but it still plays very well and predictable like always and as a lead trumpet, my goto! Right now though, given the requirements of the gig, I'm most likely going to use the newest of my Bb horns, the NY7. It's just a fantastic playing experience every time. I don't use my Bach C as much as I'd like to, but it's a very nice horn as is my old very high mileage Getzen Flugel. If I do my part, the horns will always deliver. They all have my respect and confidence and will be with me as long as I can play. _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1070 Location: The Golden City of OZ
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think one needs to be very wary about a blanket statement saying the older horns were better.
First question would be how many new horns have you tried? Yes, some might feel lifeless and dull, but many are amazing. My favourite horn is my 1960s Yam634, but that's because I've played it so long it's like a part of me. You need to take that out of the equation.
I've played modern horns that have done nothing for me when I was sure I was going to be blown away (Shires Destino), and I've played modern horns that have completely blown me away when I wasn't expecting much (LA Yam).
Some people hook into the nostalgia of playing something old.
I note that most players who rely on the horn for their income tend towards newer equipment.... to me that says something.
My 2c
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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