Why vintage trumpets are better?

dstdenis · Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:34 am Post subject:

I don't mean to speak for Mr. Goode, but I'll mention that he wrote an interesting blog post about the lost art of trumpet design, in which he promotes the advantages of playing trumpets manufactured in the French style, with small bores and narrow bell tapers. This design approach fell out of favor during the 20th century and was replaced with bigger instruments that have a broader sound and are more difficult to play.

I'd love to play-test trumpets built in the early French style. However, I don't know of any such instruments being built today, and I'm not inclined to go on a safari looking for a 100-year-old instrument in decent shape. So that leaves me to choose from instruments more widely available.

I'll also mention that I enjoy playing a modern instrument that, while built with the larger design approach, is much easier to play than other instruments I've tried and sounds great. So I don't agree that modern instruments—at least some of them—are all that bad. (Of course, I haven't tried that 1907 F. Besson either, so I might not know what I'm missing!)
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bg · Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:38 am Post subject:

Reprinted and edited from my website; a post from 12 years ago:

The Lost Art of Trumpet Design

During the 19th century, great pains were taken to develop a design
for a trumpet that would equal the cornets of the day as a solo instrument.

Working with Besson,Thibouville-Lamy and Couesnon, Monsieur Merri Franquin came up with a basic design that featured a tapered leadpipe and bell to facilitate the elements of intonation, projection, clarity and ease of playing.

The Besson trumpets of that era were small bore horns, with very
narrow bell tapers.

A 1907 F.Besson trumpet in C was owned by the Chicago Symphony
Orchestra, utilized by solo trumpeters in the group performing
especially difficult passages throughout the entire 20th century.
This horn has a bore size of .445, and a very slim bell with a quick
taper to the rim.

I first saw this horn when I did a gig at Orchestra Hall back in the late
1980's. I saw it again in the late 1990's at the Schilke factory. It is currently
in the possession of John Hagstrom. Playing on this horn,
on several occasions, really got me interested in the history of trpt.
design, and in trying vintage instruments. This is, by far, the easiest,
nicest playing horn I have ever played. Schilke copied this bell on his D/Eflat horns.

In my own collection, I have found several American horns which seem
to resemble this early Besson in size and design. Most notably:

1) 1920's Buescher trpts. In particular, model #9 (.445)
2) Keefer or earlier Distin trumpets (.445)
3. Vega Standard (.440)
4. Conn 18B Bflat/C (.438)

The following trumpets share most characteristics of the Besson, but have
wider bell flares, more typical of the 1920's-40's Besson .450 bore (Fabrication or Meha) design:

1) Martin "M" or "#1" bore trpts of the 1920's and 1930's. (.445)
2) Conn 22B, 12B and 24B B flat trumpets. (.438)
3) The King "Liberty" and Silvertone models (.448)

In fact, when Adolph Herseth joined the Chicago Symphony, he was
playing a .438 bore 22B.

My pet theory:
The influx of German conductors in American orchestras sparked a need
for trumpets that had the broader qualities of the German rotary instruments. The sound of the smaller"french style" trumpet fell out of favor.

Conn responded with the 2B, originally designed for the players of the
Philadelphia Orchestra. This was a .460 bore variant of the 22B,with a nod to the medium large bore Besson Brevete that was becoming increasingly popular, but with an important difference; The radius of the tuning slide was made wider. The effect of this design change gave the player a more open, round sound, and allowed for a more open feeling to the scale.

Bach, Benge and Holton had early success copying the medium and medium large bore Besson trumpets, But the trend in classical sound forced them to offer larger, broader sounding instruments. When Bach moved to Mt. Vernon,
he abandoned his Brevete copy, and began copying the Conn 2B.

Although these changes - bigger bores, leadpipes and bells, succeeded in
delivering the desired sound qualities, THE EASE OF PLAYING, INTONATION AND CLARITY WENT OUT THE WINDOW.

Incidentally, the virtuoso jazz players of this era stuck with the smaller
bore, narrower wrap horns, as the physical demands of their gigs were simply too taxing to be achieved on TANKS.

Martin's dual bore concept was introduced in the "Handcraft Imperial" line. This horn had a top slide measuring .445 and a bottom slide measuring .453. This design provides the feel/resistance of the small horn with the sound of a larger
one. Later, they did the same thing with the "Committee" model, which is only a slight modification to the Handcraft Imperial design. My personal feeling, owning both cylinder and dual bore versions of both Martin models, is that a great deal of focus and control are lost with the dual bore. Roy Eldridge and Dizzy Gillespie both played the "M" bore (straight .445) in the 30's, switching to dual bore Committees around 1939. Listen to the recordings of Roy's
Chicago band of 1937. HOLY COW!!! Has anyone ever played more trumpet than that? I recorded "Hypnotic Suggestion" on the dual bore H.I. My next Delmark release, "Nature Boy" was recorded on the "M" bore. It gave me much more ease, facility, clarity and range.

This begs the question: Is it worth all the added physical effort to play a big, broad horn, simply because Fritz Reiner liked his Mahler symphonies tubby? Lately, I've been practicing with the Arban book on my 1939 Keefer Intonatic Model. It makes everything seem eminently easy. Trumpeters of the late 1800's and early 1900's were undoubtedly using similar equipment.

My concern in moving to smaller horns was that I would sound smaller or weaker in performance. I have found the opposite to be the case! The older designs provide better clarity and projection, and my students and colleagues are all commenting on my apparent improvement in projection and range. On the Buescher #9 and the Keefer, the very tight bell flare creates a narrower sound than I am used to making, but both horns cut through bands with greater clarity, and have NO intonation issues. Even the low D and C# are in tune without regulating the valve slides.

Recently, more resistant horns are appearing on the market. Yamaha has made a nice move with the Bobby Shew "Z" model. It's a variant on the Martin dual bore idea. Schilke makes a fine medium bore horn, as does B&S. Adams has begun making a horn inspired by the Conn Constellation. They are all fine instruments, extremely well made and assembled. However, none of them have the characteristics of Franquin's design concepts. These seem to have been relegated to the trash bin of history.
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HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

aTrumpetdude · Regular Member Joined: 20 Jun 2016 Posts: 74

Thanks for re-posting the Lost Art of Trumpet design. It definitely got me thinking. The first time I played horns like the King Liberty and the 22B my reaction was "Wow this horn is so easy to play." Then I play it next to my bigger horns and you kind of get seduced by what you perceive as the "bigger" sound or whatever. Then when I listen to a recording of myself it often doesn't sound at all like it did to me while playing, sometimes what I thought was a bigger darker sound ends up sounding kind of dull/lacking clarity when I listen back, and then the small bore horns that I thought maybe were too small or bright sounding end up sounding very rich and expressive. Anyhow I am going to keep thinking about it and experimenting, hard to break with convention and your own long held assumptions.

Also I'm just thinking about myself here, I know "XYZ Legend" plays a large bore, and yes I agree they sound fantastic and not dull or lacking clarity.
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Richard III · Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject:

I vote BG's post as right up there with Jen's mouthpiece rant as two of the the best posts in TH's history. Both should be printed out and pasted on our walls and read every time we think we need a bigger and better whatever.
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John Mohan · Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject:

Yes, excellent article Brad!

tptguy · Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:01 pm Post subject:

There is a current trumpet of top modern construction that comes directly out out of the Besson, King Liberty, and Conn 22B design school - the Jerome Callet Sima. In the '90's, Jerome sparked a big bump in sales of the vintage King Liberty and Conn 22B when he started recommending these to his students. After he retired, Jerome isolated the best features of these horns then matched them to a vintage Martin valve section, voila - the Sima. As Brad suggested, even with its medium bore it blows more powerfully than large bore horns, and without the negatives of spread sound or pitch. And for anyone that wants these benefits but in a medium-large bore, Jerome makes the NY Soloist.

ALaschiver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 26 Feb 2005 Posts: 639

I haven't read through the 6 pages ..this may have been covered. I collect Prewar and Post War Bessons and Benges. They have all been restored to original configuration and "as new" condition...replaced tubing drawn to original od and id specs. They are all individual in characteristics. My old Bessons ..some over 100 years old have a particular sound..associated with Besson. It probably is a combination of many things; first has got to be the brass. The old brass certainly was not as consistent and was, by today's standard, no doubt impure.....maybe the solder..maybe the guy making the horn was smoking a cigar...maybe the climate around the factory...there are stories re the post war Bessons having to do with Besson using brass from artillery shells, having been fired..so as to change the molecular structure. So... the old horns were inconsistent but the good ones were great and as someone said..the bad players don't exist, any more. My opinion is its not better or best..just different. It's in the sound you like...its what's in your head.
Of course, there is always the adventure of looking for that special horn..it's just a thing guys do...and its a lot of fun. I should say that for me it is preserving history. So there is that, and that is important...a historical reference preserved for future players and craftsmen.

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

The stories and folklore about Besson and Selmer using artillery shells for their brass and that's where the "magic" of those horns comes from is "fake news"

There have been a bunch of direct quotes from Henry Selmer in sax forums and other places that I've read, where he laughs at that and wonders where such a silly rumor came from.

ALaschiver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 26 Feb 2005 Posts: 639

I don't know, I wasn't there. Seems plausible to me...doesn't really matter.
Benge.nut sounds like he has a definitive answer...so that ends it. All I know is that my Bessons sound great..no matter why...Bottom line is a great player on an average horn is still great and a poor player on a great horn is still poor. It's the music that matters......off to a lesson...still studying after
all these years...trying "to get good"...(for Jack Sheldon)...who always had something on his horn to say...no matter what horn

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:33 am Post subject:

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

Lou makes a good point. What sounds different to us on our side of the horn might not sound much different on the audience's side of the horn. I don't know that audiences distinguish much or any difference in the sound between the same player playing different horns.

Professor Dennis Schneider once told me that the instrument is actually the mouthpiece, that the horn is just an amplifier. His point was that the most significant differences in sound are generated by the players themselves, not by the horns.

If you want to produce the same sound as Phil Smith or Bud Herseth or Clark Terry or Maynard Ferguson or anyone else you want to emulate you can't just go buy their trumpet and expect it to happen or even come close to happening. No trumpet, vintage or modern, changes who you are.
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Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

spach · Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:11 am Post subject:

It would be interesting to see how the internal resonances of different horns correlate to an audience's perception of tone quality.
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yourbrass · Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject:

[quote="bg"]Reprinted and edited from my website; a post from 12 years ago:

"...Although these changes - bigger bores, leadpipes and bells, succeeded in
delivering the desired sound qualities, THE EASE OF PLAYING, INTONATION AND CLARITY WENT OUT THE WINDOW."

I think this is right in a lot of instances, but both the Besson Meha and Conn 28B 0f 1920's vintage used medium bore leadpipes to put resistance back into the horn. Otherwise, IMO, they'd be so windy as to be unplayable. The Besson also had a pretty tight bell flair which opens fast, as you describe the earlier horns having.

One problem with playing really old instruments such as the Buescher or Holton that you mention is that the receivers don't fit modern mouthpieces. Many manufacturers used their own taper for their horns, and without a good fit, you're disadvantaged out of the gate.

Great post, you have done a lot of worthwhile research.
-Lionel
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