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bg
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Joined: 12 Oct 2003
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Location: boulder, colorado
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 Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: |
I think this is right in a lot of instances, but both the Besson Meha and Conn 28B 0f 1920's vintage used medium bore leadpipes to put resistance back into the horn. Otherwise, IMO, they'd be so windy as to be unplayable. The Besson also had a pretty tight bell flair which opens fast, as you describe the earlier horns having.
l |
Hi Lionel,
20's Besson Meha horns were .445, .450 and .460 only. The large bores came in during the 1950's, manufactured in England.
The 28B measures .484, and was only made briefly, due to its unpopularity. I had one years ago, and eventually sold it to Steve Winans. I sounded great on it for two tunes, and then no more chops!
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yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3630
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bg wrote: | | yourbrass wrote: |
I think this is right in a lot of instances, but both the Besson Meha and Conn 28B 0f 1920's vintage used medium bore leadpipes to put resistance back into the horn. Otherwise, IMO, they'd be so windy as to be unplayable. The Besson also had a pretty tight bell flair which opens fast, as you describe the earlier horns having.
l |
Hi Lionel,
20's Besson Meha horns were .445, .450 and .460 only. The large bores came in during the 1950's, manufactured in England.
The 28B measures .484, and was only made briefly, due to its unpopularity. I had one years ago, and eventually sold it to Steve Winans. I sounded great on it for two tunes, and then no more chops! |
That's cool, the 28B I have is coming back from valve refitting and relacquering. It's .482", so much for accuracy in 1924. So I will be playing it and reporting. The Meha thing is very interesting. They were apparently trying out various designs in an attempt to make a larger bore horn. Claude Gordon's Meha was very different from the one I worked on last year. The resistance in that one was in the leadpipe, rather than the bell near the first valve. I'm assuming those were all post-war experiments, it's a pity we don't have factory data.
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
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Hugh Anderson
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 398
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Too many vintage ones need that valve refitting. |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12657
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: | | <snip>, it's a pity we don't have factory data. |
True. Unfortunately what we are working on today is just everyday stuff, until we look at it from the lense of history.
Finding contemporaneous documentation to support theories years later is difficult. |
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I have some vintage horns that are fairly rare and all in good shape but were all selected because they stood out from the pack and were outstanding examples of the better horns of their time. None play out of tune but all have 'something' that the other same horns didn't have. So I think they are the best Ive played (and I'm not a great player but a serious hobby player). I can afford to pay for what I want and every horn of the 6-7 I keep is special in some way. But none are special in every way. I also have 1 Eclipse and one on order and will probably have a Taylor Custom soon. This last two years I have discovered the newer models, and from what I see the higher end custom makers are the way to go. These guys (the right ones anyway) are interested in giving you the sound YOU want and the right ones know how to give you assistance in tailoring the tube to do what you wish as far as the horn can help. Some of the better new makers seem to get more of it all right when you provide the correct information. I have 2 horns that I feel special attention was paid to at the factory and they seem to get most of it the way I would have had them do it (for me maybe no one else) and I play them better than any other older instrument Ive played. All the trumpets I played at Eclipse and Taylor at the ITG played better than the best of these and that's about 12 different model Bb horns. The other BEST makers I played there did not demonstrate my concept of sound inn totality but I did not play them all and I am only trying to say most had 1 or more of the features/abilitys than the vintage horns had.
Guys like Claude Gordon/Mendez/heavy big band guys got the service and attention to finer details that made the name for all the horns they sold after the the great demoed them. For a fairly reasonable price guys like Lawler and Eclipse, Taylor, will craft a horn for you like they would make for A big name world beater, and they wont be anymore expensive than the Y's and S'ss and the A's and the variability and the wealth of valuable knowledge and advice the custom guys offer for the same or less prices are amazing. Don't think they are out of your price range if you are considering a top of line Back or Yamaha or Shilke cause thats not the case and are probably cheaper right now. My belief is you can come so much closer to that horn that does everything the way you want it at a very reasonable price. I dont think there can ever be a horn that is great for everyone since we all play so differently but a knowledgeable builder can maximize the upsides and minimize the downs much better than stock pieces that have runs of 10's or 100's. In 1967 I played 30 silver flairs and found 1 that stood out from the rest and that was my top horn at the time. While the other 29 were good horns this one stood out and it was part of a larger run, just imagine how much more one built with you in mind would have been?
I was very surprised when Roy Lawler built me a horn that fit me so well and played so well by just doing a bell and leadpipe + ergonomic details. Paid 2600$ and it was far superior to any new stock horn I had played to that point. Then I bought a used Eclipse and found a horn that seems made for me. I just went to ITG and had him fit me for a total custom. This horn will have a Solar (vocable) type rimless 2 piece medium bell entirely in 99% pure silver. The horn body is their Enigma design reverse LP with 2 tuning slides (D and round), 4 removable leadpipes in sterling silver, 2 3rd and 2 1st slides with stops (1 set with rings other without as I dont use them), 2 sets finger buttons, 2 sets bottom and top caps all 1 of a kind never to be duplicated. All for less than the price of a top line Xno. I know everything about the horn except how the bell will be before I get it. And frankly anyone who has played a Vocabell or Solar rimless or a Reynolds or King real silver bell knows it doesn't get much better. This with a lifetime guarantee, and made by a guy I truly like and I feel likes me. How does that get any better. I really dont think many are as good as Leigh McKinney at Eclipse or Andy Taylor but I certainly dont know everything but using someone to customize a horn built with modern techniques VS buying a good vintage or stock hi end horn seems to be rolling dice compared to what's available.
My 2 cents
Rod |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I am sorry. I can't process a mass of words as above. I have a disability I guess.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9345
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Use of subject-driven paragraphs would help.
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dmamazon
Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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uhoh...is the "captain" back???? LOL
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:25 pm Post subject: Sorry just drove 6 hours |
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The Trump of it !
Some vintage really good
Most hi end modern horns better overall
Custom with smaller good makers who tailor to you best and no more expensive than top line big run horns.
Rod |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry just drove 6 hours |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | The Trump of it !
Some vintage really good
Most hi end modern horns better overall
Custom with smaller good makers who tailor to you best and no more expensive than top line big run horns.
Rod |
Great trumpet that works.
Not sure if it is good but people say it is.
Costs tons of money and big names play them.
Must be good because little guys makes them.
Can't be good because they make lots of them.
Works only for me and I don't need you to confirm it.
Options. I know which one I want.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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bg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 1292
Location: boulder, colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Get a horn that works
Play it 'til your lips fall off
Haiku for the day
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Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | I have some vintage horns that are fairly rare and all in good shape but were all selected because they stood out from the pack and were outstanding examples of the better horns of their time. None play out of tune but all have 'something' that the other same horns didn't have. So I think they are the best Ive played (and I'm not a great player but a serious hobby player). I can afford to pay for what I want and every horn of the 6-7 I keep is special in some way. But none are special in every way. I also have 1 Eclipse and one on order and will probably have a Taylor Custom soon. This last two years I have discovered the newer models, and from what I see the higher end custom makers are the way to go. These guys (the right ones anyway) are interested in giving you the sound YOU want and the right ones know how to give you assistance in tailoring the tube to do what you wish as far as the horn can help. Some of the better new makers seem to get more of it all right when you provide the correct information. I have 2 horns that I feel special attention was paid to at the factory and they seem to get most of it the way I would have had them do it (for me maybe no one else) and I play them better than any other older instrument Ive played. All the trumpets I played at Eclipse and Taylor at the ITG played better than the best of these and that's about 12 different model Bb horns. The other BEST makers I played there did not demonstrate my concept of sound inn totality but I did not play them all and I am only trying to say most had 1 or more of the features/abilitys than the vintage horns had.
Guys like Claude Gordon/Mendez/heavy big band guys got the service and attention to finer details that made the name for all the horns they sold after the the great demoed them. For a fairly reasonable price guys like Lawler and Eclipse, Taylor, will craft a horn for you like they would make for A big name world beater, and they wont be anymore expensive than the Y's and S'ss and the A's and the variability and the wealth of valuable knowledge and advice the custom guys offer for the same or less prices are amazing. Don't think they are out of your price range if you are considering a top of line Back or Yamaha or Shilke cause thats not the case and are probably cheaper right now. My belief is you can come so much closer to that horn that does everything the way you want it at a very reasonable price. I dont think there can ever be a horn that is great for everyone since we all play so differently but a knowledgeable builder can maximize the upsides and minimize the downs much better than stock pieces that have runs of 10's or 100's. In 1967 I played 30 silver flairs and found 1 that stood out from the rest and that was my top horn at the time. While the other 29 were good horns this one stood out and it was part of a larger run, just imagine how much more one built with you in mind would have been?
I was very surprised when Roy Lawler built me a horn that fit me so well and played so well by just doing a bell and leadpipe + ergonomic details. Paid 2600$ and it was far superior to any new stock horn I had played to that point. Then I bought a used Eclipse and found a horn that seems made for me. I just went to ITG and had him fit me for a total custom. This horn will have a Solar (vocable) type rimless 2 piece medium bell entirely in 99% pure silver. The horn body is their Enigma design reverse LP with 2 tuning slides (D and round), 4 removable leadpipes in sterling silver, 2 3rd and 2 1st slides with stops (1 set with rings other without as I dont use them), 2 sets finger buttons, 2 sets bottom and top caps all 1 of a kind never to be duplicated. All for less than the price of a top line Xno. I know everything about the horn except how the bell will be before I get it. And frankly anyone who has played a Vocabell or Solar rimless or a Reynolds or King real silver bell knows it doesn't get much better. This with a lifetime guarantee, and made by a guy I truly like and I feel likes me. How does that get any better. I really dont think many are as good as Leigh McKinney at Eclipse or Andy Taylor but I certainly dont know everything but using someone to customize a horn built with modern techniques VS buying a good vintage or stock hi end horn seems to be rolling dice compared to what's available.
My 2 cents
Rod |
Hi Rod
You raise some interesting points. I'm not really sure how I feel about this, as I feel that as well as particular playing characteristics suiting the player overall, that we also adjust to what we play, making it difficult to ascertain what suits us better as a player and what is most comfortable owing to familiarity.
As an example, I played my Bach 184ML cornet for years, and always thought that it was a great cornet with ideal playing characteristics for me. I switched to a Yamaha Xeno cornet three years ago because I felt that it had a sound that blended better with a section of Sovereigns. They play nothing alike, although I immediately liked the Xeno. I got my Bach 184ML out the other day after having not played it for two years, and I thought that it had rather odd and fairly rigid slotting. Of course it hasn't changed, and it is still the cornet I loved playing for eighteen years, but I've become accustomed to the different playing characteristics of my Xeno cornet, and would need to re-acclimatise to my Bach cornet again.
This seems to be the case with me. I stick to one cornet, one trumpet, have only owned one flugel and work at playing my best on what I own.
I understand how to dial in mouthpiece gap on instruments, and have done this to make them play better for me, but all I am doing is opening the blow and loosening the slots, as I have only ever reduced gap, and have been described by Jim New who has done all my mouthpiece work for me, as a player who likes less gap.
Regarding any other characterisic of a trumpet/cornet, I have absolutely no idea, having owned only middle of the road instruments.
If I was to go this custom route, the maker would need to listen to me play my existing trumpet, and ascertain what about it suits me because it inherently does rather than because I have got used to it as my daily player, and turn my vague request for something reasonably free blowing and fairly flexible slotting with what ever sound concept I am looking for, into an actual trumpet that will suit me.
I suppose in practice it is a case of trying the maker's different bells, lead pipes etc. I'd worry that I'd choose what I instantly feel most comfortable with, which would probably be similar to what I am already playing, rather that what would inherently suit me.
However I suppose that this would be the same if I just went to a retailer and tried various Yamaha, Bach and Schilke models.
Like the GR playing tests find what mouthpiece characteristics objectively suit you rather than what you subjectively like, I wonder whether a custom maker is able to do this when listening to a player playing his components.
Just another thing to think about in my opinion.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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dstdenis
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | | ...using someone to customize a horn built with modern techniques VS buying a good vintage or stock hi end horn seems to be rolling dice compared to what's available. |
I don't think there's a lot of risk in buying a high-end stock trumpet, as long as I can do a thorough play-test and/or the seller offers a trial period.
The biggest risk I've faced is in buying an instrument that seemed promising, assuming I would acclimate well to it. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't work out, at least I could find a larger group of potential buyers for a well-cared for stock instrument.
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Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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I've been thinking on this for a while. I think I am ready to respond now.
I think the mostly-bad instruments did not survive the scrap drives of World War II. Why keep around a horn that doesn't play well when the fate of the world is at stake?
Some have mentioned that manufacturing techniques have improved today much beyond the 1930s through 1950s. Quite honestly this is true but not relevant. Valves are fit a bit tighter today, and that's about it. Bells are made the same way. Tubing is drawn the same way. Perhaps valve caps are CNC than made with a reproducing lathe or a milling machine. That just lowers the cost, increasing the profit.
One thing that is very different today versus the Golden Age? Intonation. The horns are designed and built differently. Generally speaking, the older horns weren't designed to need correction of notes involving the first valve. All notes except the C# and D were very close... but not perfect. This is, in practice, not a problem because we don't play instruments with equal temperament... in other words, we adjust our pitch to play within the chord. D-sharp and E-flat are not the same note.
And yet... and yet... you can find horns that had first-valve adjustment. The 1920s Buescher Model 10 could be ordered that way. Bach didn't invent it, though he embraced it... and most today follow that method of intonation and adjustment of pitch.
One advantage of the vintage horn... price. One can buy a good brand and model of vintage horn for $500 or less, send it to a world-class tech who remanufactures it for $1000 to $1500 and you have a horn that can play as well as any new horn for $2000. It is, after all, brass manipulated into shapes that are soldered together, then and now.
Examples of this remanufacturing... replacing slide tubes with new. Rounding the bell bow. Refitting the valves. Disassemble, straighten, reassemble stress-free.
Did you know that Steve Winans (Doctor Valve) still hones casings as he did at Schilke... by hand?
It is, therefore, apparent that one can get a vintage horn and restore it to original or better condition at a cost competitive with a new horn. Sometimes, however, you get lucky! Your vintage horn's valves may not be worn out. It may be straight. Its finish may be acceptable. Win!
Is this inherently better or worse than a new horn?
No, it's not, either way.
Because there is one huge variable in the equation... you.
Let's say you buy the most popular student trumpet and mouthpiece, the Bach Stradivarius 37 and the Bach 3C. You begin playing this at age 10 and by age 18, or 22, or 25, this is the only setup you've played. Would you go looking for anything sufficiently different? Some do... many do not. The Bach style of intonation is deep within your soul. The sound, the resistance... the only horn for you might be a different Bach... but Bach it is.
Or not. Your parents might not have been able to afford a Bach. Perhaps you got your grandfather's or uncle's trumpet. It might be an Olds. It might be a Reynolds. It's almost certainly a Conn. Sometimes you get lucky and it's a Buescher. 
You might be a bit more flexible in intonation styles. You might explore a little more. You might discover Holton. You might discover Vega. You might find a pre-war (that's WWII) horn that just amazes you.
Or you try the Melk. Or the Lawler. Or the Harrelson. You love it... you buy it.
All is good. Vintage or not, you find your horn somewhere. Sometime it finds you.
Vintage is not "better". Vintage is not "worse". Vintage is another wonderful set of alternatives in this diverse world of trumpets and the joy of playing them.
Thank you for your time.
Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have horns that cost me two to three thousand dollars and they have quirks. One needs that double trigger setup to work best and still there are some notes I wish were better. Great sound and perfect mechanical function. Another has great intonation but the valves are finnicky. Every horn carries risks. Then there are the vintage buys. Low risk in price. Doesn't work out? No big deal. But when it does, cheap perfection. The valves are perfect and don't need work. The intonation is right on without slide adjustments. The sound is just what I'm looking for. At Tom said above so well, sometimes vintage is just right.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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OldKing
Regular Member
Joined: 26 May 2017
Posts: 89
Location: Boerne, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I recently bought a new Schilke. The first day playing it I couldn't get rid of this analogy in my head: Just like my current (2nd, last, etc.) wife, this horn is WAY better than my first, and, just like the goddess that is reclining a few yards away and has shown me more love than any woman has ever shown me in my life, some adjustments will have to be made!
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For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? - 1 Cor 14:8 |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:55 am Post subject: Re: Why vintage trumpets are better? |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | I'm trying to get a consensus from some guys with this statement:
Why vintage trumpets are better.
It seems to me, that older horns I've come across, from NY and Mt Vernon Bach, Benges, older Kanstul, Bessons, Selmers, Conn, Schilke, King, Getzen, Buescher, etc etc all seem to just have a more quality feel, sound, intonation and build than modern trumpets. It's not just heft or weight, as some older horns are more heavy, but then some are super light.
Do you think it's due to materials, smaller build staff, more attention to details due to smaller production, or is it all in my head. I haven't played or owned a modern instrument build passed the early 70s I've really "enjoyed" playing like I do with these older horns.
Modern horns just feel like everything else modern. More mass produced, cheaper, and less life and personality in the horns.
Am I off base, or am I on to something here. |
Having recently bought an (almost) brand new Bach Commercial to replace/replenish my dear old King (Super 20 Symphony DB, 1970) I can compare these fine instruments:
Workmanship:No differences at all; well looking again, tubing one piece from bell to valves on the King; Bell clearly fitted per se on Bach.
Quality of materials: King all metal; Bach plastic valve guide;
Valves: King nickel plated - now bit satin look; Bach Monel - in the process of breaking in
Waterkeys: King the old type,spring etc; well functioning (seal renewed) Bach: both types - I donīt fancy the modern Amado contraption!
Trigger system: King spring controlled at first valve + classic throw (the spring trigger a bit crude compared to the system on my Getzen Custom Series cornet); Bach - by throw.
Overall finish: Once my King was laquered - now needing overhaul; but bell still beautiful; engravings a bit crude compared to the Bach -maybe done by "hand"??
Tuning: The King in essence no need for compensating at all while the Bach needs quite a carfeful adjustment low C# etc.
Sound:Huge differences (one of the reasons why I bought the Bach): The King much more core, rounder, not as bright as the Bach, yet good bite high up; however the Bach is (for me) brighter, more easy-blown, more at home in the big bands
So whatīs the verdict?: Very fine instruments, huge differences in character; valves (presently) Bach quicker, more of an "agile" feeling.
Final comment: depending on original quality of workmanship/producer; valves probably better now due to the possibility of finer tolerances. Also Iīm a bit thoughtful regarding the tuning/compensation needed with the Bach: maybe Benge.nut has a point?! Of course my sound on the King is genuinely personal, ingrained in (or by) my personality. Maybe the Bach will turn out that way? However I wonīt be able to hear that in year 2064.....  
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:51 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Louise Finch"] | Rod Haney wrote: | I have some vintage horns that are fairly rare and all in good shape b
Hi Rod
You raise some interesting points. I'm not really sure how I feel about this, as I feel that as well as particular playing characteristics suiting the player overall, that we also adjust to what we play, making it difficult to ascertain what suits us better as a player and what is most comfortable owing to familiarity.
As an example, I played my Bach 184ML cornet for years, and always thought that it was a great cornet with ideal playing characteristics for me. I switched to a Yamaha Xeno cornet three years ago because I felt that it had a sound that blended better with a section of Sovereigns. They play nothing alike, although I immediately liked the Xeno. I got my Bach 184ML out the other day after having not played it for two years, and I thought that it had rather odd and fairly rigid slotting. Of course it hasn't changed, and it is still the cornet I loved playing for eighteen years, but I've become accustomed to the different playing characteristics of my Xeno cornet, and would need to re-acclimatise to my Bach cornet again.
This seems to be the case with me. I stick to one cornet, one trumpet, have only owned one flugel and work at playing my best on what I own.
Louise,
I had 1 horn a King Silver Flair from 1968 thru current, but a few years ago I started buying and selling horns trying to find a better one. Just the last year I have bought and owned 30 very top end modern and vintage horns. I am not looking for a certain sound (as I feel that comes from the meat behind the mouthpiece) but a feel and ease of play. How easily and well I can do what I want behind the horn.
Even my Flair which know very well and is a TOP horn had some playability and feel/ease issues that I felt could be better. I retired well from a business career and decided I would throw some cash at finding the horn that minimized or eliminated the perceived flaws. Luckily I have been lucky enough in both purchasing and selling that I have had experience in owning quite the # of excellent examples of both modern and vintage horns at little to no cost.
While this makes me no expert and I am only a better than average player (I realized this only after attending my second ITG and listening to what passes for their best licks played at ridiculous volume and well over their range), it did give me a good feel for the things some trumpets did better than others. I also tried to get info in the bells I liked and the bore, lp, etc. i.e. I do my homework as much as possible and keep a big notebook on likes/dislikes. I also use Jim new for MP and his adjuster, have found my MP so that's not a factor. So I am coming at this from a different angle than you have.
I understand how to dial in mouthpiece gap on instruments, and have done this to make them play better for me, but all I am doing is opening the blow and loosening the slots, as I have only ever reduced gap, and have been described by Jim New who has done all my mouthpiece work for me, as a player who likes less gap.
Regarding any other characterisic of a trumpet/cornet, I have absolutely no idea, having owned only middle of the road instruments.
If I was to go this custom route, the maker would need to listen to me play my existing trumpet, and ascertain what about it suits me because it inherently does rather than because I have got used to it as my daily player, and turn my vague request for something reasonably free blowing and fairly flexible slotting with what ever sound concept I am looking for, into an actual trumpet that will suit me.
I suppose in practice it is a case of trying the maker's different bells, lead pipes etc. I'd worry that I'd choose what I instantly feel most comfortable with, which would probably be similar to what I am already playing, rather that what would inherently suit me.
However I suppose that this would be the same if I just went to a retailer and tried various Yamaha, Bach and Schilke models.
Don't assume this Louise, I have not found that to be the case. They will show you what they manufacture and if you are lucky they will have same modes with their different options and many do not have much in the way of options or are limited to the thoughts of their makers. If seeking a top lines top models you may pay up to 4000$ for such and such and if you select particular bell/lp combos you may not even play that config until you buy it!
Like the GR playing tests find what mouthpiece characteristics objectively suit you rather than what you subjectively like, I wonder whether a custom maker is able to do this when listening to a player playing his components.
I would not leave this up to the maker, his concept of sound has nothing to do with mine. A good custom horn should sound like you want. Use his expertise to get what YOU want and if it doesn't cut it send it back to have changes made - try this with a custom made configuration stock type horn.
Just another thing to think about in my opinion.
All the best
Lou |
When I went to ITG this year to find a horn I had already discovered Eclipse and found their horns to be a 98% fit for me and I would have been happy with another stock model. I have fallen in love with 2 bell types and felt that I had to have one that combined both features. The 2 bells I love are the Reynolds and King Sterling silver bells and the Conn Vocabell and Eclipse Solar bell. I wanted a rimless 99% pure silver bell. With Leigh I was able to dial in the front end of the horn thru the bell based on blow. Obviously I didn't get to try the bell as it will probably be the 1st ever made. But if you like absolute bell like clarity and unsurpassed power you know what this should do. Since I also like the sterling leadpipe on the super 20 so he is going to draw me 4 99% silver leadpipe to his specs (which I've already selected). I mentioned I dont use rings for intonation and he offered to make me 2 extra slides (1st and 3rd) without rings so I could configure any way. I ordered the bell from a master bell maker and Leigh said he would work closely with the bell maker so that it was as close to perfect as possible and that we could tweek afterward. We also spent over 4 hours working thru the specs and playing to dial things in. Both the bell maker and Leigh were excited after hearing my plans and want to give the best horn ever made, and I feel this is really the case. My point in original post is that I will have no more into a very custom one of a kind horn, specifically tailored to me based on the knowledge of 2 of the best custom makers for less than a top line stock Yamaha or Bach or Shagerl, or whatever. I most certainly feel that if you educate yourself on what you like and dont like, get a good layman understanding of what does what, you can get very much more for your money and come closer to what you need with a maker who tailors to you vs one of the 40 horns the manufacturer boxed up for the show. And how many of the guys you see selling at the shows build horns?
Rod |
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Dennis78
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 673
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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After all this custom horns seem way more cost effective than mass production big names
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a few different ones |
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Dennis78 wrote: | | After all this custom horns seem way more cost effective than mass production big names |
My big point. More work but worth it.
Rod |
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