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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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 Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Dennis78 wrote: | | After all this custom horns seem way more cost effective than mass production big names |
And you can start with a vintage horn or parts. Either way with a good tech you win.
Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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Irving
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1886
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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What really matters
Even though it seems not to
Is how you blow it
TH Haiku archive #2 |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: |
Louise,
I had 1 horn a King Silver Flair from 1968 thru current, but a few years ago I started buying and selling horns trying to find a better one. Just the last year I have bought and owned 30 very top end modern and vintage horns. I am not looking for a certain sound (as I feel that comes from the meat behind the mouthpiece) but a feel and ease of play. How easily and well I can do what I want behind the horn.
Hi Rod
Thank you very much for the clarification.
Even my Flair which know very well and is a TOP horn had some playability and feel/ease issues that I felt could be better. I retired well from a business career and decided I would throw some cash at finding the horn that minimized or eliminated the perceived flaws.
You've worked hard, retired well and are choosing to spend your hard earned cash on what you enjoy doing. Sounds good to me.
Luckily I have been lucky enough in both purchasing and selling that I have had experience in owning quite the # of excellent examples of both modern and vintage horns at little to no cost.
Sounds great!
While this makes me no expert and I am only a better than average player (I realized this only after attending my second ITG and listening to what passes for their best licks played at ridiculous volume and well over their range), it did give me a good feel for the things some trumpets did better than others. I also tried to get info in the bells I liked and the bore, lp, etc. i.e. I do my homework as much as possible and keep a big notebook on likes/dislikes.
I understand, thanks.
I also use Jim new for MP and his adjuster, have found my MP so that's not a factor. So I am coming at this from a different angle than you have.[/color]
I've found my mouthpiece also, so I'm not really sure whether I am coming at this from a different angle to you. If I am, probably just owing to circumstances, but I may be wrong. You mention that you have Jim New's adjuster. I'm guessing that you used it/are using it to dial in your gap on the different horns. I did this, and once I had dialled in my gap on my three trumpets, I decided to switch to Jim New's sleeves. I can be a bit analytical and I felt that this was the way to dial in the gap once, and refrain from further experimentation, and since I only had one gap adjuster anyhow, I've never seen it as a permanent solution, rather as an experimentation tool, although of course, it could be used permanently by someone who has one trumpet.
Regarding to what I mean by my circumstances being different to yours, I'm a full-time mum and don't have much spare cash. When the valve problems of my Bach 37 got to the stage that I considered it to be unreliable, I looked into trumpets, and found that in the UK I could get a Yamaha Xeno II for two thirds of the price of another Bach 37, and after making enquiries, I found one retailer who would give me what I was looking for in trade on my 2013 Besson Sovereign cornet against an ex-demo Xeno II, with the additional amount to pay being within my very limited budget of only a few hundred pounds. I therefore asked for a two week trial on the Xeno II, nearly sent it back, before remembering that a UK tech had advised that my Bach 3C gaps on the large side for a Bach mouthpiece, whereas Yamaha mouthpieces gap on the smallest end of the range he has measured for Bach mouthpieces. I coincidentally had a sleeved Kanstul B10 trumpet backbore which replicated the gap of the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece, and a Jim New made custom Kanstul top, which is a copy of the cup end of my Bach 3C. The difference was night and day with this mouthpiece combination, and I kept the trumpet, and further experimented with gap via Jim New's gap modulator, only to end up basically where I started. I now use his 6.5 sleeve on my Xeno II, with his version of a standard Bach 10 backbore, and James R New versions of my Kanstul custom top.
I suppose this is a typically wordy Lou way of saying that I didn't have the money to experiment with different trumpets, so spent a lesser amount to dial in the one available to me for the right price. It has worked out well anyway, and I have ended up with a pretty reasonable trumpet set-up.
I would not leave this up to the maker, his concept of sound has nothing to do with mine. A good custom horn should sound like you want. Use his expertise to get what YOU want and if it doesn't cut it send it back to have changes made - try this with a custom made configuration stock type horn.
I understand what you mean, thanks. You probably couldn't do this with a stock type horn. I think though that sending a fully custom horn back to have changes made also has its difficulties. I think that I personally would worry that it hadn't turned out ideally the first time, because of something I said or did, and would worry that I was costing the maker extra money or wasting their time. I suppose with this sort of project, there has to be an agreement up front that you are going to keep returning the trumpet to have changes made until it is what you are looking for, that this is factored into the price, and the maker takes on the job on the understanding that you are going to keep coming back for tweaks, and that it is not just a case of making the trumpet, giving it to the customer, and on to the next job. It is probably insecurity on my part, but I'd worry whether a custom maker would be willing to give me this type of attention, if he had a named player waiting in line. I'm sure however that you have a good enough relationship with Leigh at Eclipse, that makes all this irrelevant.
When I went to ITG this year to find a horn I had already discovered Eclipse and found their horns to be a 98% fit for me and I would have been happy with another stock model.
I understand, thanks.
I have fallen in love with 2 bell types and felt that I had to have one that combined both features. The 2 bells I love are the Reynolds and King Sterling silver bells and the Conn Vocabell and Eclipse Solar bell. I wanted a rimless 99% pure silver bell. With Leigh I was able to dial in the front end of the horn thru the bell based on blow. Obviously I didn't get to try the bell as it will probably be the 1st ever made. But if you like absolute bell like clarity and unsurpassed power you know what this should do. Since I also like the sterling leadpipe on the super 20 so he is going to draw me 4 99% silver leadpipe to his specs (which I've already selected). I mentioned I dont use rings for intonation and he offered to make me 2 extra slides (1st and 3rd) without rings so I could configure any way. I ordered the bell from a master bell maker and Leigh said he would work closely with the bell maker so that it was as close to perfect as possible and that we could tweek afterward. We also spent over 4 hours working thru the specs and playing to dial things in. Both the bell maker and Leigh were excited after hearing my plans and want to give the best horn ever made, and I feel this is really the case. My point in original post is that I will have no more into a very custom one of a kind horn, specifically tailored to me based on the knowledge of 2 of the best custom makers for less than a top line stock Yamaha or Bach or Shagerl, or whatever. I most certainly feel that if you educate yourself on what you like and dont like, get a good layman understanding of what does what, you can get very much more for your money and come closer to what you need with a maker who tailors to you vs one of the 40 horns the manufacturer boxed up for the show. And how many of the guys you see selling at the shows build horns?
Rod
This all sounds great, and I fully understand and appreciate what you are saying. Congratulations on your new trumpet.
Best wishes
Lou
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P.S. I know that the colours are odd, but rather than spend time trying to edit it, I've left it, since I feel that it is pretty obvious that my reply consists of what it in bold.
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I understand the cash and if I was depending my work as a trumpet player I would always be playing my hi school horn haha.
I met Leigh 1st time at ITG but talked to him a few days prior. I think he treats everyone like he did me. He and Andy Taylor treated me like I was Doc in my opinion. I did feel like they only had giving me the best possible horn for me was their only task when I was with them. They asked about things I would not have thought of and all. In other words when they were with me I was the top pro. You gotta know they sell many more horns to people who never make a dime playing trumpet than the top players.
Just the opposite of feeling they didn't have time. This wasn't available to anyone but the best in the 60-70's time frame when I could play a little and I was nowhere in line to get my Conn or King tweeked by their master builders.
Seems the custom makers and tweeters are giving me more than line manufacturers
Rod |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | I understand the cash and if I was depending my work as a trumpet player I would always be playing my hi school horn haha.
Hi Rod
Thanks very much. I know what you mean lol.
I met Leigh 1st time at ITG but talked to him a few days prior. I think he treats everyone like he did me. He and Andy Taylor treated me like I was Doc in my opinion. I did feel like they only had giving me the best possible horn for me was their only task when I was with them. They asked about things I would not have thought of and all. In other words when they were with me I was the top pro. You gotta know they sell many more horns to people who never make a dime playing trumpet than the top players.
Just the opposite of feeling they didn't have time. This wasn't available to anyone but the best in the 60-70's time frame when I could play a little and I was nowhere in line to get my Conn or King tweeked by their master builders.
Seems the custom makers and tweeters are giving me more than line manufacturers
That is all good to know and sounds great.
Rod
Take care
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Satchel
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Joined: 12 Apr 2021
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Nice thread, still relevant of course (have 2017 horns become vintage yet?).
You get what you pay for. Top of the line instruments from 50 years ago are probably much better than cheap chinese instruments made last year, even with the holy "CNC" 
| LittleRusty wrote: | | Dennis78 wrote: | | Well vintage ones are usually half the price |
Good point. If people are willing to pay double they must feel new trumpets are better than vintage. |
Not necessarily. A lot of people can't bear the idea of buying anything secondhand, and are thrilled by having something brand new.
Likewise, one could say that if people are willing to pay very dear prices for a vintage Martin or Selmer, there must be a reason.
| Yamahaguy wrote: | | I watched a documentary once about a blind test by top violinists. They were comparing several modern violins vs. Guarneri & Stradivari. The Strad actually came last. |
I'd love the reference of that test. I seriously have doubts regarding the method and results. Interestingly, the people who pay the very high prices for these instruments are primarily virtuoso concert players, not collectors, and sometimes they are not millionnaires, they get a loan from the bank to get that instrument. There must be a reason.
In general, from experience in other fields, I'd say that crafts like instrument making do not follow a linear progression. They reach certain highs and lows through history. Violin, Piano and Guitar making certainly have. Saxophones too (Selmers from 1940s and 1950s if you ask me, and most saxophone players).
There's only so much that "Computer Numerical Control" (CNC) can "control".
Moreover, when each instrument was not measured by CNC and not mass-produced industrially, but rather made by the hand of few very experienced craftsmen, each instrument was unique in its own way.
Perhaps it's a bit like the difference you can see in hand-made engravings on old horns from yesteryear vs laser-computer-guided engraving today. Today's engraving is... perfect. But nowhere near the quality and nuances of 1920s engravings. That was hugely time-consuming, so most instrument makers have chosen not to renew the skill.
Trumpets are not an industry where the product has dramatically changed with huge technological leaps every 10 years. They are a fairly simple mechanical object. In this traditional industry, the progress that has been made was in efficiency: less time-consuming work, less details to pay attention to, more uniform production, for one purpose only: to cut costs.
I don't see why a properly tended instrument wouldn't last decades. In all logic, I don't see why a top instrument from 1930 should never be superior to an instrument made in 2021.
That being said, craftsmanship, attention to detail, low numbers and handmade instruments are why for example new Monettes are so expensive. There's no secret. So if you don't have 20k, for a fraction, you can go for a vintage instrument.
Last edited by Satchel on Sun May 09, 2021 11:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Satchel
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Joined: 12 Apr 2021
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamahaguy wrote: | I'd love to see this done with trumpets!  |
I'm sure it's been done in many ways. For those tests, there's probably only a handful of people who can tell the difference, mainly probably the player. In any case, we'll all agree that for the most part the result comes mainly from the player not the horn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sB8iFIIyXc
that must be the violin one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXOPjI9l0I |
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JHirakawa
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Joined: 11 Mar 2022
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | | JoeLoeffler wrote: | | Here in Chicago, there is this band that plays downtown - I think they are called the CSO. They play some old Bach trumpets from 1956. |
I think most of them play modern Yamaha artist models. |
Joe Loeffler used to work for Steve Winans (aka Dr. Valve), and now he has his own shop in Chicago. Joe has done work for a lot of prominent trumpet players, including CSO. He cleaned and replaced the valve pads on my Chicago Benge when I first got it. When I went to his place to pick up the Benge, he was working on one of John Hagstroms' trumpets. I think he knows what he is talking about.
_________________
Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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JHirakawa
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Joined: 11 Mar 2022
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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I am very lucky to be in the position to compare 4 vintage trumpets that are in very good condition with a modern Kanstul French Besson Classic trumpet and a 1969 Olds Custom Crafted trumpet. All of the trumpets are dent and rot free, and all valves are aligned and have fantastic compression (Hetman No. 2 valve oil on the vintage horns). So it should be a more fair comparision than using a horn that was in poor condition. I got the 1948 Chicago Benge at a local estate sale last year. The second picture is what looked like after I got it cleaned and a slide tube resoldered. The valves on the other vintage trumpet are in just as good condition. I found the 1946 Martin Committee at a local estate sale a couple of months ago. It's in unbelievable condition, dent free, and the lacquer and valves are amazing. (The 3rd slide slaps back in if you pull it without depressing the valve.) The vintage trumpets all have their quirks and are very mouthpiece sensitive. I have to warm up with them for a while to get in the right groove. The Benge and Martin both have unusual .445 M bores. You can push them, but I think they are at their best when played softly. That's when you get the sound they are known for. The 1947 Holten, Model 48, has a rare .453 bore and it sounds the brightest. It feels tight and takes the most effort to play. I have to relax if I push it or it can shut down. The 1947 Conn 22b has a .438 bore, but I can push it as hard as I want. It's easy to play and can sound very nice, in it's own way, playing any type of music. The Kanstul French Besson Classic ML b-flat is predictable, in slotting, intonation, and with changing mouthpieces. It plays and sounds similar to a good Bach Strad 37, but with a little livelier tone. The ML Olds Custom Crafted is designed as a lightweight Mendez. It's more an ounce lighter than a Schilke B2 that I used to have. It plays and sounds as you would expect from a modern lightweight trumpet. The Kanstul or Olds would be best if you have to blend with a section, but the Conn could work too. I'm not a pro horn player by any means, but that's my two cents.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/5_Vintage_trumpets.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/1947_Chicago_Benge_Trumpet.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Martin_Committee.jpg
_________________
Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9008
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Paragraphs are your best friend.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9008
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:52 am Post subject: |
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For those benefitting from an easier read:
| JHirakawa wrote: | I am very lucky to be in the position to compare 4 vintage trumpets that are in very good condition with a modern Kanstul French Besson Classic trumpet and a 1969 Olds Custom Crafted trumpet. All of the trumpets are dent and rot free, and all valves are aligned and have fantastic compression (Hetman No. 2 valve oil on the vintage horns).So it should be a more fair comparision than using a horn that was in poor condition.
I got the 1948 Chicago Benge at a local estate sale last year. The second picture is what looked like after I got it cleaned and a slide tube resoldered. The valves on the other vintage trumpet are in just as good condition.
I found the 1946 Martin Committee at a local estate sale a couple of months ago. It's in unbelievable condition, dent free, and the lacquer and valves are amazing. (The 3rd slide slaps back in if you pull it without depressing the valve.) The vintage trumpets all have their quirks and are very mouthpiece sensitive.
I have to warm up with them for a while to get in the right groove. The Benge and Martin both have unusual .445 M bores. You can push them, but I think they are at their best when played softly. That's when you get the sound they are known for.
The 1947 Holten, Model 48, has a rare .453 bore and it sounds the brightest. It feels tight and takes the most effort to play. I have to relax if I push it or it can shut down.
The 1947 Conn 22b has a .438 bore, but I can push it as hard as I want. It's easy to play and can sound very nice, in it's own way, playing any type of music.
The Kanstul French Besson Classic ML b-flat is predictable, in slotting, intonation, and with changing mouthpieces. It plays and sounds similar to a good Bach Strad 37, but with a little livelier tone.
The ML Olds Custom Crafted is designed as a lightweight Mendez. It's more an ounce lighter than a Schilke B2 that I used to have. It plays and sounds as you would expect from a modern lightweight trumpet.
The Kanstul or Olds would be best if you have to blend with a section, but the Conn could work too. I'm not a pro horn player by any means, but that's my two cents.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/5_Vintage_trumpets.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/1947_Chicago_Benge_Trumpet.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Martin_Committee.jpg |
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12659
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Satchel wrote: | Nice thread, still relevant of course (have 2017 horns become vintage yet?).
You get what you pay for. Top of the line instruments from 50 years ago are probably much better than cheap chinese instruments made last year, even with the holy "CNC"
| LittleRusty wrote: | | Dennis78 wrote: | | Well vintage ones are usually half the price |
Good point. If people are willing to pay double they must feel new trumpets are better than vintage. |
Not necessarily. A lot of people can't bear the idea of buying anything secondhand, and are thrilled by having something brand new.
Likewise, one could say that if people are willing to pay very dear prices for a vintage Martin or Selmer, there must be a reason.
| Yamahaguy wrote: | | I watched a documentary once about a blind test by top violinists. They were comparing several modern violins vs. Guarneri & Stradivari. The Strad actually came last. |
I'd love the reference of that test. I seriously have doubts regarding the method and results. Interestingly, the people who pay the very high prices for these instruments are primarily virtuoso concert players, not collectors, and sometimes they are not millionnaires, they get a loan from the bank to get that instrument. There must be a reason.
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I’d love to see the reference on that claim.
Some Stradivarius violins, I have no idea how many, are loaned out to the person playing it. Like the Lipinski Strad.
Article about the theft of the Lipinski Strad
As to preferring new over secondhand I am one of those people  |
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I don't think I have a post in this thread, which is kind of odd given the thread title and subject.
Let's see if we can answer the question:
Q: Why vintage trumpets are better?
A: They aren't - it's all in the mind and ear of the beholder who wants to believe that there's some kind of mythical mojo that vintage instruments possess that somehow gives them unearthly qualities in sound and playability.
I'll take a well-made modern horn over a vintage instrument any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Brent
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Posts: 1097
Location: St. Paul, MN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:49 am Post subject: Vintage |
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I haven’t read much of the responses, but in my opinion, modern horns are superior. They’re made better, and far more often than not play better, in every way. The new Bachs I’ve tried had improved intonation and a more even blow compared to the ‘91 Bach I bought new in college. The new Yamaha horns are just fantastic.
If I were in the market, I’d consider a newer used.
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mike ansberry
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Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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Location: Clarksville, Tn
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I have run a brass instrument repair shop for a living for 6 or 7 years, then as a sideline/hobby for 45 years. I have played very, very many trumpets. Bachs, Yamahas, Adams, Van Laar, Benge (new and vintage), Getzen, Olds, King, Conn, Lawler, and many, many others. I frequently work on a horn that I think really is the best horn I've played. I take it to a gig to give it a real test, and by the end of the first set it is back in the case and my Olds Super Recording is back in my hand.
I feel certain that there is a new horn out there that will out-perform my Super Recording, but I haven't found it yet. And if I do, I probably won't be able to afford it.
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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poketrum
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Joined: 04 Mar 2023
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Vintage horns? Whatever floats your boat.
Vintage TH threads? Priceless. |
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cbtj51
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Joined: 24 Nov 2015
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Location: SE US
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| cbtj51 wrote: | | Vintage vs Modern? All of the Bb horns that I own were very "modern" and current at the time I purchased them. They are mostly "vintage" now, but so am I. My Benge was the first new trumpet that I owned and it still plays very well. Even with the mileage that's on it, compression is still very good though the valves are in need of replating. My Yamaha is not as old but it still plays very well and predictable like always and as a lead trumpet, my goto! Right now though, given the requirements of the gig, I'm most likely going to use the newest of my Bb horns, the NY7. It's just a fantastic playing experience every time. I don't use my Bach C as much as I'd like to, but it's a very nice horn as is my old very high mileage Getzen Flugel. If I do my part, the horns will always deliver. They all have my respect and confidence and will be with me as long as I can play. |
I reread this entire post trying to figure out what vintage vs modern trumpets might refer to. I'm still not sure I have found a very solid definition, but I did run across my 2017 comments while reading and immediately recognized a few additions and subtractions (don't have that Yamaha 6335 or the oldest Getzen Flg anymore) from my personal inventory since then.
In general, my original take is still pretty much valid. The most vintage of my inventory is the 1971 Benge in my signature that I bought new in 1971. Shortly after my earlier comments, I got that Benge brought back to a state of playability that I think is a good deal better than when the horn was new, but that took some $$$ and the skill of Jim Becker to make that a fact. I play it regularly and in certain situations it is my favourite, but that is like saying you have a favourite child (I love all of mine in different ways for different reasons, but they are all my kids!).
Vintage better? I don't really think I can answer that honestly without a horn in my hand and then it kinda becomes "love the one you're with"!
Life is Short! Find the Joy in it!
Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| cbtj51 wrote: | | I reread this entire post trying to figure out what vintage vs modern trumpets might refer to. I'm still not sure I have found a very solid definition |
A valid point. Not just that, the concept of ‘better’ isn’t really defined either. Most of the current $2500+ factory new horns wil outplay and outsound a $100 pawn shop Ambassador (at that price they’d better!). But the latter is still a better choice for say, a local Oktoberfest or a highschool marching band.
Better is subjective, especially when used as a blanket statement like this; turning the resulting ‘discussion’ into mostly personal preferences.
That’s not to say it isn’t an interesting discussion though. For example, my flugelhorn has some serious intonation challenges that modern flugels lack (or at least different ones, and it has no triggers either). But those same intonation challenges have forced me to become a better player. Recently was able to compare it to a Schagerl Morrison, which was indeed a ‘better’ (in the sense that it would’ve been easier to adjust to before I learned how to play my own flugel) horn but wouldn’t have forced me to step up my game in the same way.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1909
Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| poketrum wrote: | | Vintage TH threads? Priceless. |
Hehe. "Vintage TH Threads vs. New TH Threads" -- what a thread THAT would make!
When it comes to horns, I have a big collection, most of which could be characterized as "vintage" (or at least "classic"). I enjoy them, but since I am strictly an amateur (and perhaps "dilettante" would be more realistic), I don't need to perform credibly at an audition, blend with a section, etc.
On the other hand, for those who earn a living playing and for whom a horn is a tool which must serve them to a certain minimum standard, a new pro-quality instrument is likely going to do the job better given advancements in both design and manufacturing methods.
I was in a local music store a few years ago where I heard one of the employees trying out saxophones in a demo room. He was playing really well, and later when he rang up a purchase for me, I chatted with him for a few minutes about his playing. He turned out to play professionally, so I asked him if he ever got a chance to try classic saxophones like the Selmer Mark VI or the Buescher Super 400. He replied that he had, but that his modern Yanagisawa was so much easier to play well that he would never trade it for one of those old "legendary" models. For him, the "vintage" horns made him work too hard, so as professional tools they didn't make the grade.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Read a bunch of these and while I respect your opinions, to me it's really simple, there is no doubt vintage horns are better from many perspectives.
1st you can't get a better value per dollar. Example is there a new horn of same quality selling for $600 than this 1954 Olds Super?
or this 1964 King Super 20 DB SilverSonic for $1000?
or even this 1919 Tonk Sterling(was good enough for Louis Armstrong 2nd hand according to his 1966 interview bought one at uncle's pawn shop for $10 in 1919) for $70?
2nd the thought that they couldn't do then what we can do now is absurd, these were men/women who used slide rules(anyone here know how), operating exacting although much larger and cruder looking, milling machines, invented stuff that we still use today. They built great ships, buildings, instruments of war, requiring great precision, the world never dreamt of with much cruder tools than we have today and mostly no foundations to build on.
My father was a blacksmith/machinist/inventor, he stood over his lathe run by huge foot wide canvas belts in the ceiling and made stuff to such exacting tolerances you could put 2 parts together and there wasn't room for even oil or water between them. Might take longer than it would today, but it would be done right. Most of these men worked on much tighter profit margins than today because the quality and their name was more important than how much profit they made. I suspect that is why so many have fallen, because today in big business, the profit is more important, gained by taking shortcuts, poor quality control(we'll just make another if they get a bad one AND CAN PROVE IT), cheaper metal alloys, etc. You can see this in the change in Martin after Wurlitzer bought them in '64, The whole Conn, Olds, King debacles in the 70's & '80's
Also , on the vintage, those that had problems have likely either been fixed or discarded or just sat, one of the reasons I'm very picky about what I buy on the web, ask lots of questions, get lots of pics, have found a couple that just sat and rotted from the inside, fell apart on cleaning(a 1924 Martin Dansant).
So, that's my 2 cents
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Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)
Last edited by dwgib on Wed Sep 13, 2023 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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