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Loud Method for younger players



 
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Trumpetdude0823
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Loud Method for younger players Reply with quote

I have recently started gained a couple of very young trumpet players (around 6th grade or so), teaching students this young is difficult at times but a very good learning experience for myself. One of my old teachers and I were talking a couple of days ago about how in most middle school environments the younger trumpet players are not able to build up enough strength needed for a proper embouchure needed to play such demanding instrument. We talked about a method he recently started experimenting with and that is letting his younger students play as loud as they wanted/needed to for the first to two or three weeks of private instruction to engage and build the necessary muscles needed to play trumpet. I agree with this method but wanted to see what everybody else though?
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teachers are constantly telling young students to "control your tone," but how are you going to control something you don't even have?

Loud playing is good playing. So is soft playing. But wind power must be built first...the soft control comes much later.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beginners should play loudly at times, but certainly *not* all the time. They should develop their embouchure to respond easily and hold notes in tune with a good sound from pp to ff. When they play ff, they should strive for a full, round sound, but not harsh. They should practice changing dynamics too, for example, starting a note pp, crescendo to ff with a full, round sound, then back down to pp while holding the pitch in tune and the sound well-centered. They will acquire strength gradually with regular daily practice.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the better parts of Claude Gordon's method is the exercises where you play to the end of your breath and crescendo, causing all the blowing muscles to shake. Couple this with other off the horn exercise to build wind including good old fashioned play, and you should see some quick development.

I think ppp dynamics should be experimented with and if a beginner gets the hang of it great, but if they struggle that extreme should also be limited in practice for a while. Developing real control over the p - ff range is a high priority right off the bat, with an emphasis on good habits. Many indeed play better on the louder side of that spectrum, which raises a perfect use for the Clarke book; to balance that out so chops stay responsive.
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lmaraya
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Loud Method for younger players Reply with quote

Trumpetdude0823 wrote:
I have recently started gained a couple of very young trumpet players (around 6th grade or so), teaching students this young is difficult at times but a very good learning experience for myself. One of my old teachers and I were talking a couple of days ago about how in most middle school environments the younger trumpet players are not able to build up enough strength needed for a proper embouchure needed to play such demanding instrument. We talked about a method he recently started experimenting with and that is letting his younger students play as loud as they wanted/needed to for the first to two or three weeks of private instruction to engage and build the necessary muscles needed to play trumpet. I agree with this method but wanted to see what everybody else though?


Please share!!
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. This is a subject the Doc Severinsen, no less, discussed in an online clinic. They need to develop their air and to get a grip on the balance of that on chops. They can't do it if they're pussyfooting around. As someone who used to teach in the middle schools, I totally agree!

ed
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously, and after 40 some years of teaching 9 year olds through college students, I have to state that the needs of rank beginners are far different from the needs of "developing" and "accomplished" players. Without proper breath support, the rest of those things being attempted by true beginners are really all moot. Some students will already have a sound in mind- I did as a 9 year old, and they will automatically work towards that. Many, however, will just believe that since they have a trumpet in their hands; they're blowing into it and something is coming out of it; they must be making the proper sound. (And it amazes me how many of us allow this to continue in our efforts to get some technique into kids...)

I always encouraged the students to play fairly loudly as they practiced alone (yeah- and that became more rare in the later years of my career...) in an effort to get them used to moving wind through the instrument. In band classes, we had to take time to deal with balance and blend, and those things that make what ever sound is being produced pleasant for those in the audience (or out side of the kid's "practice room" at home. Once a student is moving wind and actually listening to the sound being produced, it's not very difficult to get them to tone it down, or blend in, or use dynamic contrasts and even become a bit sensitive to musical taste. But at the beginning level? Get some wind moving, and that means playing at a full volume. Now, if things are being distorted or sound like crap, you must step in to re-direct, but over the years, and particularly with brass instruments, I had many more students who under-supported their sound than the opposite. Good luck.
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The air support is definitely something that needs developing in young players. I am forever encouraging my beginners to play louder as they go higher in order to get them to support their chops with air. It is also musical to crescendo in ascending passages and decrescendo in descending passages. There was a trumpet method I saw discussed on TH not so long ago which advocated using less air, or as little as possible and while I imagine overblowing could be an issue for more advanced players I don't see it as a issue for beginners, rather the opposite it true.
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree. I was one of those players who was never encouraged as a beginner to play loudly. I really have to wonder if that might be a contributing factor to my lifelong struggle with range and endurance. When I got my first private teacher in 6th grade, he was having me play "super louds" from the beginning of the Arban book. When I went to study with Don Tison in Baltimore in 10th grade, he also was having me work on loud playing. I still remember a Jr. High Christmas concert when the conductor had the second chair player play along with me on a solo, because my sound was so puny.

One of the trombone players in my church orchestra has a trumpet playing niece in Colorado who has sat in with us on several occasions. The first time she did, she was only nine years old, but I was absolutely amazed how huge her sound was. I don't think I've ever heard a kid that young play that loudly. And, her sound didn't have the typical "blastissimo" quality a lot of young kids have when trying to play loudly. I'm sure she was encouraged by her teacher to play full volume right from the start.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
Seriously, and after 40 some years of teaching 9 year olds through college students, I have to state that the needs of rank beginners are far different from the needs of "developing" and "accomplished" players. Without proper breath support, the rest of those things being attempted by true beginners are really all moot. Some students will already have a sound in mind- I did as a 9 year old, and they will automatically work towards that. Many, however, will just believe that since they have a trumpet in their hands; they're blowing into it and something is coming out of it; they must be making the proper sound. (And it amazes me how many of us allow this to continue in our efforts to get some technique into kids...)

I always encouraged the students to play fairly loudly as they practiced alone (yeah- and that became more rare in the later years of my career...) in an effort to get them used to moving wind through the instrument. In band classes, we had to take time to deal with balance and blend, and those things that make what ever sound is being produced pleasant for those in the audience (or out side of the kid's "practice room" at home. Once a student is moving wind and actually listening to the sound being produced, it's not very difficult to get them to tone it down, or blend in, or use dynamic contrasts and even become a bit sensitive to musical taste. But at the beginning level? Get some wind moving, and that means playing at a full volume. Now, if things are being distorted or sound like crap, you must step in to re-direct, but over the years, and particularly with brass instruments, I had many more students who under-supported their sound than the opposite. Good luck.


This.

Most of my private lesson teaching these days is Middle School, and Craig's comments are 100% correct, IMO.

Brad
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SMrtn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I know is, that since getting access to a church hall twice a week (I have my own key), where I can make as much noise as I want, my understanding of how trumpet sounds and works has grown by a very large proportion. I can't overestimate how much being able to blow loud sounds has helped. It may seem counter-intuitive, but with being able to play loud, comes more control, and a greater ability to play softly.
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horntooter
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

100% agreed! I made it most the way through high school with every teacher saying to play softer the whole time. I didn't know how bad I was until I had a teacher yelling at me to play louder and blow harder! A couple weeks of that and I grew more than the previous 6 years combined. Range, tone, intonation, and even the ability to play softer with a solid sound all came together quickly after that. Parents and teachers can't stand their kids blowing so loud and blasting, but by god that's the best way to develop them at first! It's not forever. You can really set them back years by not allowing them to do it.
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