Ghitalla on embouchure

[oj]

I will take the liberty to quote just a tiny bit from the interview that Jean K. Moorehead, student of Armando Ghitalla had with him. The whole interview will be found in FEBRUARY, 1987 / ITG JOURNAL under the title:

Embouchures: Their Assets and Liabilities - An Interview with Armando Ghitalla by Jean K. Moorehead

J.M.: What do you look for in a student's embouchure?

A.G.: An embouchure must provide three things: (1) endurance, (2) range, and (3) production of a beautiful tone. If any of these is weak or missing, it must be remedied to produce a fine player. Good endurance, range, and tone equal an embouchure with potential. It is not so much what it looks like, but what it produces. The desire and responsibility that make these things grow must be placed on the student.

J.M.: How do you then help a beginner develop this set-up?

A.G.: The initial setting is the most important moment. The following steps in starting a beginner are much easier for the student
if he has never tried to play. In whatever way the first sound is produced it becomes an unconscious iron memory pattern that will
repeat itself unfalteringly even many years after a single first attempt. So, if at all possible, the student should not be allowed to try playing without teacher supervision. The teacher can then initiate a "natural" and good embouchure. I feel it grossly ignorant on the part of the teacher whose sole statement to the beginner is to place the mouthpiece "naturally" or "comfortably" without further real instruction. The student's chances of having a good embouchure are clearly minimized by such instruction. Now, back to the question? How do you start a beginner? If you are a trumpet player with a good embouchure, a picture is worth a thousand words. You play for the student. The following steps are an aid for those who must teach trumpet but are not themselves trumpet players, and to help the student arrive more quickly at a good embouchure.

(1) Without the trumpet or mouthpiece, have the beginner roll the lips inward as if saying the letter "M." Take care that no red part of the lip shows and there is no rolled lip between the teeth. The teeth are virtually closed.

(2) Blow an airstream through the center of the lips without unrolling them. Saying piiiip or peeeeeep with the air can sometimes facilitate this action.

(3) After this is accomplished, the teacher places the mouthpiece on the student's lips during the "M" formation, about half and half.

(4) The student holds the mouthpiece and then blows the same airstream through the mouthpiece (no buzz) that was accomplished
through the rolled lips.

(5) We then join the trumpet to the mouthpiece, with instructions on how to hold the trumpet, and the same airstream exercise will produce a G on the second line or higher. Certain points may need to be checked here if no sound comes forth - the airstream from the "M" position is crucial and some pressure is required so that the rim of the mouthpiece holds the embouchure in place while the lips relax enough to vibrate. The sounded note G or higher indicates the necessary innate tension required in a good embouchure. Nothing lower than this G should be attempted for three to five days in order to set the embouchure. Long tones are encouraged to strengthen the lips. The player then works down to low C after the first three to five day setting has taken place. The lips will unroll and find a more flexible setting as the player extends the range in both directions. I have found this beginning rolled setting so much more successful than starting with unrolled lips which produces a low C as the first note. Too many range and endurance problems result from this unrolled beginning lip and endurance problems result from this unrolled beginning lip position. It is interesting to note that both horn and trombone embouchures are taught successfully from an unrolled lip position.

Ole

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2003-11-20 03:31 ]

[HJ]

Ole,

That is a good story. Of course this is about the same as the lip squeek and lip clamp etc. I completely understand how this should work, but does this work for advanced players? I mean, what Ghitalla is pretty direct, and my own experience tells me that it is impossible (at least for me it was, and if I believe the for the majority of posters in this forum it is too) to apply this as a rightaway playable embouchure. I agree that eventually this gives you the best basis, but it is impossible to play like that in a few weeks.
I am also a little confused about how this should work for children or beginners. I, myself, start to teach them lip clamp and air hiss-put on mpc. as soon as possible. I have more than a few children of age 8 or 9 that can play a beautiful high C, and they cannot play even the simplest tunes like Mary had a Little Lamb. So, yes, for most children and beginners it is not hard at all to play high on a rolled-in setting, but I never saw it become a usable embouchure or range, but after playing for more than a year. This is a point about BE that keeps me busy anyway. Maybe Jeff could give a clue. Once a beginner is able to play rolled-in (most of them are very quick), how should you proceed from there? There is not a method book that starts at that range, and again, the high C is the only note they can produce at that time, if they try anything else, they are just like all other beginners and can play up to maybe C2. Personally I think this is OK, if they keep prtacticing BE they will sooner or later incorporate the BE elements and their chops will evoluate accordingly, but when I read this Ghitalla method, I get the feeling that there are people who know other ways to treat a beginners roll-in.

Bert

[ This Message was edited by: HJ on 2003-11-22 15:29 ]

[oj]

Bert,

Here is another good story, go and have a look:

http://www.r-o-d-d-y-t-r-u-m-p-e-t.cc/tofanelli.html

(scroll down to the end)

A little personal story:
When my son was 6, I bough a pocket trumpet and taught him to play a little. We started with a little lip buzzing, then buzzing a bit on the mpc. and then on the trumpet. We tried to transfere the lip buzz into the trumpet. I showed him little melodies (a'la Twinkle, etc.) and also some scales. After 2 months he could play better than his 3 year older cousin (really embarrasing for the cousin). - who had been taugh for two years once a week. I saw the method his teacher used, starting on low C, etc. My son did not want to be in a school band so he quit. Later he taught himself to play the guitar.

It was after this period I discovered Ghitalla's teaching philosophy, so I never really tried out his way. But I feel that what my son and I did was kind of close.

Another story about Ghitalla is this: When he had seminars he would ask someone to go out and find a person who had never ever played a brass instrument. Then he would work on this person and make him produce his first sound. One time (I think it was a seminar in Italy) the guy they brough in was able to play some very high notes, high C and above. Of course after 5 to 10 minutes the person could not do it anymore.

Ole

[Ricetrpt]

HJ-

It seems to me, and I have not yet read a whole lot about BE, is that the fundamental difference between Ghitalla's method and Smiley's is that BE is something you incoporate into your playing slowly.
When I was a freshman at Rice University (five years ago), Ghitalla put me through an embouchure change as described in the interview posted above. I was basically out of commission for two months, as I learned this new approach to trumpet playing. For the first few weeks, I could only play between C in the staff, and High C. The great part was, playing high had never been so consistant or easy. As the article states, my lips slowly unrolled to a state where the high register was still consiberably easier than before the change, but I could also negotiate low notes and pedal tones.
That being said, Ghitalla only put me through the embouchure change because I NEEDED IT. My embouchure was entirely rolled out when I first got to Rice, and as I would ascend to the upper register, my bottom lip would move behind my top lip. This made for a very fuzzy sound, and inconsistant upper register, and way too much motion (thus limiting my flexibility). Basically, I had hit a wall and was not going to get much better on the embouchure I had.
There are several people who don't prescribe to this method of playing, and they play considerably more rolled out than Ghitalla did. However, as he said, it is the product that counts. If a student can naturally play high, and has a beautiful sound, than let it be. For me, the embouchure change was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, but I needed it. Other students in the studio didn't need it, so Ghitalla didn't change their embouchures. I hope this post helps explain a little more.

Zeb

P.S. It's great to see people writing about an old friend and mentor.

[HJ]

Zeb,

Don't get me wrong, I think that what I read about Ghitalla is better than most other things I read about embouchures. Working with the BE for 1 1/2 years now convinced me of the fact that rolled-in playing is a very important part of learning how to play the trumpet. So, do not misunderstand me, I am honestly interested in how Ghitalla worked from there. I understand the initial setup, I understand why (and I don't know a lot about Ghitalla, but you had lessons from him, so I think that if your conclusion is that BE is indirect, versus Ghitalla direct, I think that might be the big difference between the two systems), but I do not exactly understand HOW.

If you can play a high C on a rolled in setup ( and I already said that most of the little kids I teach can do this in a couple of weeks, it never ceases to amaze me) how do you go from there? What exercises did mr. Ghitalla give you? and how did you tongue this embouchure (for that, to me, is still the hardest part of playing rolled in) or where did he have you place your tongue? And how can you teach this to children? I mean, there is no book beginning on high C, and of course it is possible to teach them some childrens songs one octave up, but I am not shure if that will work in the end. I totally get your point about having to make the change, and I think for a dedicated player it is no problem to play high C rolled-in over and over again if he feels it works ( I have done this with BE without complaining, and I had some fun with it ,too, actually) So, I really want to know how mr. Ghitalla proceeded once the initial setup was o.k.

Bert

[HJ]

Hi Ole,

I had a look at Roddy's page, and this was indeed an amazing story. But did you take a look at the Trumpetstuff movies and the picture of this trumpet player? He almost looked like the kids on the BE book!!! Playing an F above triple high C with a rubber face, hahaha!!!!

Bert

[Ricetrpt]

HJ-

Ghitalla's next step was to start moving down in the register (normally using lip slurs) very slowly. For instance, if the student can play a G on top of the staff, have them try and slur that down to an E and then come back up to the G. The most important thing is that the student always come back to the high register with ease. If, after descending, the high register is difficult, the student is going to far down too soon. Ghitalla was also a very big proponent of lip bends for getting into the lower register. He felt that the aperture goes through the same motion when bending a note as it does when descending on the horn. Also, if this is the only motion in the embouchure as you decsend, returning to your original setting is as easy as bending a note back up to its original pitch. (Does that make any sense the way I explained it?)

Tonguing is the hardest part of any embouchure change. I wish I could remember what we did to work it out, but I still consider articulation to be a weakness of mine. I will try and think of what we did to counter that, and if I remember I will post it here. Let me know if this was of any help.

Zeb

[HJ]

Zeb,

Yeah, this sounds clear. It is like the roll-in#3 exercise in Jeffs book. Personally I think more of rolling out than lipbends, although the difference is nihil, it is more what you think while trying to play lower.

The part that interests me most is the tonguing part, because this is something that is not easy for me to do rolled-in. Please post it if you know how you did it with Ghitalla.

Bert

[jarrelainen]

Thought that I'd add a post...

I have been going through an embouchure change, and what struck me when I read about Ghitallas embouchure change "method" was that that is exactly what I'm trying to do right now.

I completely agree with the sensation that playing high is very effortless and so easy, BUT the problems come when I try to play low or something with lots of articulation.
My guess is that because I've been playing with a very open setting before I'm too used to use too much T in the tu.

So I guess I have to stick to stuff that is above C2 until I feel that I can expand it down?

It is so hard when almost everything goes low in the staff and therefore gets my old playing habits back and then ruins my practice session getting me frustrated over why the high register doesn't speak anymore...

So, please if You know any advice I would appreciate that.

/JK

[oj]

JK,

One easy thing you can do is this:

Every time you do the octave test (when playing roll-out exercises), you form the lips as for the roll-in, but play the low C with that. You also try to get a decent attack on this note. When you go up an octave to C in staff, you think "down" (as Jimmy Stamp always said), then when you go down again to the low C (the ending half note), you think "up". Over time the "distance" between notes will diminish. An octave like this, will feel almost horisontal - not as a big jump.

If you do this every time you do the BE roll-outs, you should speed up this development.

Another tip is:

Tongue the lip slur exercises. First round, slur, second round, tongue. When you start on these slurs, roll the lips in for all the low notes. Exaggerate at first. This will also train your setting in the low register.

Finally, as Zeb says above: For instance, if the student can play a G on top of the staff, have them try and slur that down to an E and then come back up to the G.

Or, "translated" to BE: Work on Roll-In #3!

Ole


[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2004-01-29 05:56 ]

[gerrit2]

Yesterday I heard a cd of Ghitalla. Pretty nice. He can play high with still a nice tone. Also great to hear about someone who knew how he did it.

[oj]

Armando Ghitalla was the first to record the Johann Nepomuk Hummel Trumpet Concerto (Concerto a tromba principale).

Recording took place in December 1963 and January 1964 with "Boston Chamber Ensemble", conductor Pierre Monteux. It was recorded in Kresge Auditorium in Cambridge, Massachusetts USA, near Boston. Ghitalla played it in the original key of E major, using a C trumpet.

When Ghitalla held his Town Hall Concert in New York, 1958, it was very uncommon to use a trumpet as a solo instrument for classical music. This performance kind of paved the way for Maurice Andre (in the 1960ies) and lot of others later. Of course Scherbaum was also an important factor for getting the trumpet recognized as a classical solo instrument.

Armando had other artistic talents. He was a very good cartoonist.

Perhaps Zeb (as his student) could give us more info about him?

Ole

[Ricetrpt]

Ole-

You've done your homework. Ghitalla was the first trumpet player to give a solo recital at town hall in NY. He also played a recital in the smaller hall at Carnegie.

In addition to being an amazing player/teacher and a good cartoonist, he was also a gourmet chef. I had some of the best meals of my life at his townhouse in Houston. However, beyond all this, he was an amazingly humble man and the perfect gentleman at all times.

By the way, I think he was also the first to record Albrechtsburger, Michael Haydn, and possibly the Molter. I'm not positive about that. I know the first two for sure, but am not certain of the last one. Any questions (for the most part) people have, I am willing to answer. It's nice to have an old friend be spoken of in such high esteem.

As for the embouchure change stuff, the worst thing to do is to rush it. Most people take from 3-6 months with this change before they have regained all of their facility on the instrument. It really depends on the person. With the articulation, it's still something I have a hard time with (not because of the embouchure change, but because I just do), but I think the articulation should always come as a reaction to the airline. NOT the other way around. Thinking that way has helped me a great deal. Hope this helps.

Zeb