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Keyed Bugle


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Wrms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Keyed Bugle Reply with quote

I have recently once again become interested in Keyed Bugles. I had an opportunity 20 years ago to play one for a short time and remember thinking that it was very cool. I run a 1800s brass band in Stevenson Washington (Whiskey Flats Brass Band) and think that it would be fun to include a Keyed Bugle. I have lots of questions and love to hear from anyone that plays one or has other experiences.

I am not sure what key I should be looking for if solo with band literature is the direction that I’m going for (In WFBB I usually play Eb). Where do I find one? I do have a couple of leads. I’ve read Ralph T. Dudgeon’s book and am re-reading it. My Book is the first edition; I understand that the second edition has more information for the player. What advice or information do you have that can help me on my journey?

Thanks,

Mark
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Last edited by Wrms on Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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omelet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that different than the G bugles used in drum corps?
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, its a early 1800s bugle with what looks like sax keys on it.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right my bad --keys on it versus pitched in different keys.
I thought they were referred to as keyed trumpets. I wonder, these must sound terrible? Can you get a consistent tone from it?
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/RzBa0Us3XDU
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're playing brass band literature from the era, the melody line and most solos are in the Eb part. You'll want an Eb keyed bugle for that reason, and it will also be much easier to get around on. They can be awkward to hold and play, and the smaller size of the Eb makes navigating the keys easier. You basically have to learn to play the specific bugle you buy, because there was no standard key layout or set number of keys.

I became somewhat proficient on a borrowed Robb Stewart Eb years ago and played it as a feature in our Civil War band, but the owner decided to trade it for an authentic period Bb keyed bugle. The Bb was so much larger that I had a lot of trouble operating the widely-spaced keys. That was the end of my keyed bugle career...ha ha

As for where to find one, start saving your money. The authentic ones usually sell for thousands, and a nice reproduction isn't much cheaper. I see them pop up on eBay from time to time, and someone like Mark Elrod might know of a few for sale.
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale,
Thanks for the information. I suspected that was the way i should be looking. I have a great collection of Eb solos with piano that was assembled by Paul Maybery that I've used with my Cornet, so I have a lot of repertoire options in the solo realm. Plus I love playing Eb Cornet.

As far a acquiring a horn, I will be looking at the low end of the price spectrum. I'm hoping to be somewhere around 2k. Eric Totman has two for sale now and another two undergoing repairs. The one Eb is way out of my price range, so I'll keep looking.

Mark
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bringing this back from the dead. One showed up on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keat-for-Graves-Winchester-New-Hampshire-Keyed-Bugle/302771831829?hash=item467e9b8415:g:4psAAOSwEzJbItQ8

It looks like an Eb but is not specified as such. I've asked the seller and hope to hear back soon. In the meantime I hope that those of you that know these will look at the listing (please don't buy it '')and tell me any observations that you might have.

Mark
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess would be Eb, too. I'd ask the seller what key it plays in, with and without the pigtail. If he wrote the description that's posted, he should know.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Question: Reply with quote

This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related?
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Question: Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related?


All the same family and time period I think, along with the keyed trumpet.
I'm not sure what else falls into this category.

Mark
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if this; https://www.robbstewart.com/keyed-bugles-in-bb-by-james-keat-and-graves-co is the same horn. If so the ebay horn would seem to be a Bb. The seller has not replied yet.

Mark
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Keyed Brass Reply with quote

Wrms wrote:
Didymus wrote:
This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related?


All the same family and time period I think, along with the keyed trumpet.
I'm not sure what else falls into this category.

Mark


I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti.
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pc2001197
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have anything regarding playing that Thing, Jeff Stockham of the Excelsior Band is the guy to ask. He excels(!) in playing basically any instrument in the brass band but his keyed bugle playing is exceptional.

Cheers,
Victor
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass Reply with quote

The connection that I was referring to is the keys and time period. A chromatic instrument, made of metal, with a a cup type mp utilizing keys spread over the body of the instrument sounds like a Keyed Bugle or a Ophicleides or a Keyed Trumpet. Thats how I think about it. I'm just speculating about all of this of course. There are lots of ways to categorize things('

Mark

Didymus wrote:
Wrms wrote:
Didymus wrote:
This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related?


All the same family and time period I think, along with the keyed trumpet.
I'm not sure what else falls into this category.

Mark


I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti.

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Wrms
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could any of you provide contact information for the experts, such as Jeff Stockham, Ralph Dudgeon, Mark Elrod or others?
PM would be good.

Thanks
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Wrms
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the response from the seller about pitch;

"The Keyed Bugle comes with an additional straight crook and mouthpiece that tunes to Bb high pitch A=452. The pigtail crook seems to tune to high pitch A and may be missing an additional small crook that fits between the pigtail and the mouthpiece. I do not have a mouthpiece that will fit in the bugle without the pigtail. I believe the instrument was set up to be played with a crook. The Keyed Bugle is configured in the same manner as the Keat for Gaves Bugle on Robb Stewart's website; however, it is not the same instrument."

Mark
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti.


Most sources seem to agree that the ophicleide was a member of the family of key bugles invented by Halary in the early 19th century. While "ophicleide" apparently literally means "keyed serpent" in Greek, that was a reference to what it was intended to replace, not what it was based on.

I was under the impression that the keyed trumpet represented an attempt to use keys to chromaticize the natural trumpet, and thus isn't really related to the conical-bore bugle family -- and that it went extinct earlier because the narrower trumpet bore didn't take to keys very well ("a demented oboe" is a term I've read).
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Didymus wrote:
I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti.


Most sources seem to agree that the ophicleide was a member of the family of key bugles invented by Halary in the early 19th century. While "ophicleide" apparently literally means "keyed serpent" in Greek, that was a reference to what it was intended to replace, not what it was based on.

I was under the impression that the keyed trumpet represented an attempt to use keys to chromaticize the natural trumpet, and thus isn't really related to the conical-bore bugle family -- and that it went extinct earlier because the narrower trumpet bore didn't take to keys very well ("a demented oboe" is a term I've read).


Thank you for the clarification. Does that mean the keyed bugle and the larger ophicleides use similar fingering charts? Were there even standardized fingering charts for the former?
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
Thank you for the clarification. Does that mean the keyed bugle and the larger ophicleides use similar fingering charts? Were there even standardized fingering charts for the former?


These two charts suggest the fingerings were rather different:

http://web.a-znet.com/~jstockham/Photos/KeyedBugleFingeringChart.jpg

http://www.serpentwebsite.com/o_finger_big.pdf
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