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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: Keyed Bugle |
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I have recently once again become interested in Keyed Bugles. I had an opportunity 20 years ago to play one for a short time and remember thinking that it was very cool. I run a 1800s brass band in Stevenson Washington (Whiskey Flats Brass Band) and think that it would be fun to include a Keyed Bugle. I have lots of questions and love to hear from anyone that plays one or has other experiences.
I am not sure what key I should be looking for if solo with band literature is the direction that I’m going for (In WFBB I usually play Eb). Where do I find one? I do have a couple of leads. I’ve read Ralph T. Dudgeon’s book and am re-reading it. My Book is the first edition; I understand that the second edition has more information for the player. What advice or information do you have that can help me on my journey?
Thanks,
Mark _________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets
Last edited by Wrms on Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Is that different than the G bugles used in drum corps? |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, its a early 1800s bugle with what looks like sax keys on it. _________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Right my bad --keys on it versus pitched in different keys.
I thought they were referred to as keyed trumpets. I wonder, these must sound terrible? Can you get a consistent tone from it? |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9359 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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If you're playing brass band literature from the era, the melody line and most solos are in the Eb part. You'll want an Eb keyed bugle for that reason, and it will also be much easier to get around on. They can be awkward to hold and play, and the smaller size of the Eb makes navigating the keys easier. You basically have to learn to play the specific bugle you buy, because there was no standard key layout or set number of keys.
I became somewhat proficient on a borrowed Robb Stewart Eb years ago and played it as a feature in our Civil War band, but the owner decided to trade it for an authentic period Bb keyed bugle. The Bb was so much larger that I had a lot of trouble operating the widely-spaced keys. That was the end of my keyed bugle career...ha ha
As for where to find one, start saving your money. The authentic ones usually sell for thousands, and a nice reproduction isn't much cheaper. I see them pop up on eBay from time to time, and someone like Mark Elrod might know of a few for sale. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Dale,
Thanks for the information. I suspected that was the way i should be looking. I have a great collection of Eb solos with piano that was assembled by Paul Maybery that I've used with my Cornet, so I have a lot of repertoire options in the solo realm. Plus I love playing Eb Cornet.
As far a acquiring a horn, I will be looking at the low end of the price spectrum. I'm hoping to be somewhere around 2k. Eric Totman has two for sale now and another two undergoing repairs. The one Eb is way out of my price range, so I'll keep looking.
Mark _________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9359 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: |
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My guess would be Eb, too. I'd ask the seller what key it plays in, with and without the pigtail. If he wrote the description that's posted, he should know. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Question: |
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This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related? |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Question: |
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Didymus wrote: | This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related? |
All the same family and time period I think, along with the keyed trumpet.
I'm not sure what else falls into this category.
Mark _________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets |
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Wrms Veteran Member
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:22 pm Post subject: Keyed Brass |
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Wrms wrote: | Didymus wrote: | This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related? |
All the same family and time period I think, along with the keyed trumpet.
I'm not sure what else falls into this category.
Mark |
I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti. |
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pc2001197 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2012 Posts: 116 Location: Lexington KY
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: |
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If you have anything regarding playing that Thing, Jeff Stockham of the Excelsior Band is the guy to ask. He excels(!) in playing basically any instrument in the brass band but his keyed bugle playing is exceptional.
Cheers,
Victor _________________ Victor
n+1 and counting
VY Trumpets |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass |
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The connection that I was referring to is the keys and time period. A chromatic instrument, made of metal, with a a cup type mp utilizing keys spread over the body of the instrument sounds like a Keyed Bugle or a Ophicleides or a Keyed Trumpet. Thats how I think about it. I'm just speculating about all of this of course. There are lots of ways to categorize things('
Mark
Didymus wrote: | Wrms wrote: | Didymus wrote: | This question is off topic, I noticed a reference to Robb Stewart, who also restores ophicleides..... are keyed bugles and ophicleides related? |
All the same family and time period I think, along with the keyed trumpet.
I'm not sure what else falls into this category.
Mark |
I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti. |
_________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Could any of you provide contact information for the experts, such as Jeff Stockham, Ralph Dudgeon, Mark Elrod or others?
PM would be good.
Thanks _________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets |
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Wrms Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 129
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the response from the seller about pitch;
"The Keyed Bugle comes with an additional straight crook and mouthpiece that tunes to Bb high pitch A=452. The pigtail crook seems to tune to high pitch A and may be missing an additional small crook that fits between the pigtail and the mouthpiece. I do not have a mouthpiece that will fit in the bugle without the pigtail. I believe the instrument was set up to be played with a crook. The Keyed Bugle is configured in the same manner as the Keat for Gaves Bugle on Robb Stewart's website; however, it is not the same instrument."
Mark _________________ A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass |
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Didymus wrote: | I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti. |
Most sources seem to agree that the ophicleide was a member of the family of key bugles invented by Halary in the early 19th century. While "ophicleide" apparently literally means "keyed serpent" in Greek, that was a reference to what it was intended to replace, not what it was based on.
I was under the impression that the keyed trumpet represented an attempt to use keys to chromaticize the natural trumpet, and thus isn't really related to the conical-bore bugle family -- and that it went extinct earlier because the narrower trumpet bore didn't take to keys very well ("a demented oboe" is a term I've read). _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Keyed Brass |
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nieuwguyski wrote: | Didymus wrote: | I never heard anything about the keyed trumpet coming from the same lineage as ophicleides. I was under the impression that ophicleides descended from serpents, which descended from cornetti. |
Most sources seem to agree that the ophicleide was a member of the family of key bugles invented by Halary in the early 19th century. While "ophicleide" apparently literally means "keyed serpent" in Greek, that was a reference to what it was intended to replace, not what it was based on.
I was under the impression that the keyed trumpet represented an attempt to use keys to chromaticize the natural trumpet, and thus isn't really related to the conical-bore bugle family -- and that it went extinct earlier because the narrower trumpet bore didn't take to keys very well ("a demented oboe" is a term I've read). |
Thank you for the clarification. Does that mean the keyed bugle and the larger ophicleides use similar fingering charts? Were there even standardized fingering charts for the former? |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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