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chilesaj2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:45 am    Post subject: DCI Mouthpieces Reply with quote

I currently work with trumpets at a High School and although some here will disagree on having everyone on the same mouthpiece because different people may feel uncomfortable on different rims etc. I know there's drum corps that has all their trumpets on one piece to have a similar sound and my question is...last year I had them all on Curry 3Cs...this year I was thinking of having the first on CG3 marcinkiewicz mpcs and the 2nds on Curry 3Cs so they don't have to shallow of a piece for lower parts. Do you think that's wise or have them all on CG3's? Also do you have a recommendation of a mouthpiece equivalent to like a Bach 3C or 3D that really helps with projection? I know fundamentals helps and working with them on it but I do believe equipment changes can make slight or drastic differences as well. Constructive feedback please, thanks
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the coach of your school basketball team make them all play in the same size shoes? Sounds kinda wacky to me, sorry. Even if you want the same sound, it doesn't make sense because each player will have a different embouchure, different amounts of lip intrusion etc, and will get different sounds even if they all play on Curry 3C's. You are better off training them to blend with each other for intonation and tone....much cheaper too!
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chilesaj2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassmusician, noted and thanks for your reply.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassmusician wrote:
Does the coach of your school basketball team make them all play in the same size shoes? Sounds kinda wacky to me, sorry. Even if you want the same sound, it doesn't make sense because each player will have a different embouchure, different amounts of lip intrusion etc, and will get different sounds even if they all play on Curry 3C's. You are better off training them to blend with each other for intonation and tone....much cheaper too!


I agree whole-heartedly. One mouthpiece for all is just so wrong.
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david johnson
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, forget everyone on the same mpc. Go for a strong and full sound from everyone, especially the lower parts, regardless of what size the equipment claims for itself.
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chilesaj2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice guys but I do want to point out so I don't seem too terrible...when I had them all try the Curry 3C last year, they did all like it better than whatever current piece they were playing. The school consistently gets 1rst place, Superiors etc. and has a great program and represented VA in Hawaii for a parade that the Marine Band stationed in Hawaii chose one high school per state to march in. They're one of the top marching bands in the state but I want to continue to grow as an instructor. I agree with you all but honestly can see both sides which is why I asked so thanks for responses.
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snichols
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chilesaj2 wrote:
Thanks for the advice guys but I do want to point out so I don't seem too terrible...when I had them all try the Curry 3C last year, they did all like it better than whatever current piece they were playing. The school consistently gets 1rst place, Superiors etc. and has a great program and represented VA in Hawaii for a parade that the Marine Band stationed in Hawaii chose one high school per state to march in. They're one of the top marching bands in the state but I want to continue to grow as an instructor. I agree with you all but honestly can see both sides which is why I asked so thanks for responses.


I don't think you're terrible. I think putting everyone on the same size mouthpiece may just be a bit of an old-school line of thinking. I think at one point the Bluecoats did something like that... I think maybe on 3Cs? Maybe someone else can confirm or correct...

At any rate, while I think it's unnecessary to put everyone on the exact same size, I don't see anything wrong with putting some loose guidelines on the size they use. Like maybe rim size could be between 1.5-7, and it needs to be a C cup, or something like that... While I think people should have some options to pick the best fit, I definitely understand that the (1) the ensemble is going for a certain sound and (2) high schoolers need some guidance. Otherwise you might get 3rd trumpeters playing on a 6A4A because they got it on eBay thinking it would give them all the high notes...

People also forget that a certain amount of direction is okay for young players. They haven't developed the playing skills to even be able to decipher what they really need from a mouthpiece, and they're usually just fine on something standard/middle of the road until they get better and can truly determine the subtleties of what they need from a mouthpiece.
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Matthew Anklan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:
I think at one point the Bluecoats did something like that... I think maybe on 3Cs? Maybe someone else can confirm or correct...


With the exception of the Blue Devils, all of the top 10 or 11 corps use Hammond Design mouthpieces.
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snichols
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthew Anklan wrote:
snichols wrote:
I think at one point the Bluecoats did something like that... I think maybe on 3Cs? Maybe someone else can confirm or correct...


With the exception of the Blue Devils, all of the top 10 or 11 corps use Hammond Design mouthpieces.


Has it been like that for a while? I ask because I'm basing that off something I heard probably 8 or 10 years ago...
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Matthew Anklan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:
Matthew Anklan wrote:
snichols wrote:
I think at one point the Bluecoats did something like that... I think maybe on 3Cs? Maybe someone else can confirm or correct...


With the exception of the Blue Devils, all of the top 10 or 11 corps use Hammond Design mouthpieces.


Has it been like that for a while? I ask because I'm basing that off something I heard probably 8 or 10 years ago...


It has been that way for the last four years or so (approximating). Like most things, it developed over time.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chilesaj2 wrote:
Than.ks for the advice guys but I do want to point out so I don't seem too terrible...when I had them all try the Curry 3C last year, they did all like it better than whatever current piece they were playing.


Congratulations on your success as their tech. Getting high schoolers to buy into stuff as a whole section is pretty hard sometimes.

I would like to share that, as someone who has taught almost exclusively students who are super mouthpiece unaware and students into years 1-3 of playing, I would say about 7.6 times out of 10 most students will like the change in equipment as long as it isn't super drastic i.e. a 7C to like, a Bach 1 Or something like that.

As long as they are comfortable and sound good though... who really cares?
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: DCI Mouthpieces Reply with quote

chilesaj2 wrote:
I currently work with trumpets at a High School and although some here will disagree on having everyone on the same mouthpiece because different people may feel uncomfortable on different rims etc. I know there's drum corps that has all their trumpets on one piece to have a similar sound and my question is...last year I had them all on Curry 3Cs...this year I was thinking of having the first on CG3 marcinkiewicz mpcs and the 2nds on Curry 3Cs so they don't have to shallow of a piece for lower parts. Do you think that's wise or have them all on CG3's? Also do you have a recommendation of a mouthpiece equivalent to like a Bach 3C or 3D that really helps with projection? I know fundamentals helps and working with them on it but I do believe equipment changes can make slight or drastic differences as well. Constructive feedback please, thanks


I know when I marched (which has been a while), I played my mouthpiece. I know when I taught corps, the groups I worked with varied on what they wanted. One well-known group used Bach 3Cs for their bugles, and DEG 6 on the mellos. Another group had students use their mouthpieces, but preferred to work toward a common tone concept. Those are the two ends of the scale. Common concept, or common equipment. Personally, I prefer the common concept, because not all two kids are the same size, nor do they have the same approach to the instrument. Getting the common tone concept is far more valuable in the long run, and to be honest, lets a student play on their choice.

That said, getting high school students on better mouthpieces is a great first step toward that goal, and the Curry pieces are an excellent choice for students regardless of concert or marching. Most of my student who I work with are in the 1.5 range on rims, so many of them play something along the lines of that as well.

I know this sounds a little non-commited, but in truth, you have to do what is best for your situation, and for your students. I know that if you were the brass instructor at a school, and one of my students whom I had taught came to me being told they have to play a single mouthpiece that didn't fit them (especially after we had found the best fit for them in lessons), then I would be calling you to discuss this situation. On the other hand, if you know the players well, and can say for certain that you are confident with the choice, then I'd say go for it and wish you well.

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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I struggle with this entire concept. I want to support something that is working but I also cannot completely get behind this concept. My guess is that your success is not based on the fact you have everyone on the same mouthpiece. It is most likely due to an excellent teaching approach and a program that has great momentum. On these 2 points I congratulate you. Now to question this uniform mouthpiece concept. So do all clarinetists play the same mouthpiece? Section by section is this an approach that is employed? What of the horns; is everyone asked to play the same brand and model? How far do you take this?

I shall breathe a moment…. I have had many opportunities to play with (including Mark Curry) and hear numerous professional trumpet sections. The trumpet players in these groups were not using the same gear yet blend was not an issue. It is phrasing, style, group sound concept, dynamics, proper section interpretation of agogic markings and the awareness of blend itself that make a section sound tight and cohesive. To think that playing the same mouthpiece is the key… (Breath)… is under estimating the concept of group sound.

If this was a prerequisite to one of my music classes I would have opted out. Even if this meant I could not be part of the larger program. As a teenager (40 years ago) I would not have found this to be a valid pedagogical approach. (both my parents were teachers, one a music educator) During my 24 years in a military band program I was never asked to play strict uniform gear. I find it… (Breath)… amazing that in a school band program or drum corps that blend is so important and perceivable as to require a common mouthpiece. (Individual lip penetration and sound concept arguably negates the sameness of tonal color production of uniform gear)

While you may be helping some you might be hurting others. Yes a Bach 3C is the most popular mouthpiece on the planet.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-common-shoe-size-for-men-in-US

Though 6’ tall I wear a size 9 shoe. If I was forced to wear a 10.5 shoe (the most common shoe size in the US) I might have developed a physical issue that could have ultimately been debilitating. Playing trumpet is not as serious as muscular skeletal health… true, but why are you prescribing blend through equipment and not teaching it?

If your goal is to teach then please get in the meat an potatoes of music and teach blend, articulation, attacks, releases, breathing together, phrasing together, dynamics, and listening across the band/section. You may be doing this and I submit this is where you are creating the real success of the section/band not through equipment uniformity. If you have an individual that, no matter your efforts does not blend, then consider equipment. Please do not make equipment the first line of defense. Teach music not gear… PLEASE.

In the gear first scenario the lesson the students learn is equipment 1st not music 1st. (Okay now that we all have the same equipment we can get started with the music.) What the student walks away with is; equipment has to be the same in order to achieve a group identity or sound. Thus to get the correct musical approach equipment uniformity is paramount. I think the students are being miss led here. I strongly argue that band success has little to do with trumpet section mouthpiece uniformity. I also submit that this is not how life is outside this controlled environment. It has always been my opinion that education is all about preparation for success in life. Why not prepare the students for the reality that awaits them?

Is this a process or ideology that you have grown up with? Are you simply repeating a concept you learned or experienced? Have you been assimilated into a situation like this? Was this a positive experience? Do you use the same gear that was prescribed in this situation or have you discovered the advantages of other equipment? Have you or have you not had success in blending in a section that did not use identical equipment? I think this back ground is important to understand why you feel so strongly about the equipment component. I don’t feel you have offered a compelling argument for this approach. Please help me understand where you are coming from and why this is so important.

Constructive feedback… teach music and teach the individual to become part of the team. This is the greatest lesson you can offer. If you feel compelled to offer each individual a mouthpiece option (a 3c based mouthpiece) please make it an option not a requirement. Again if you have a player that cannot blend work with them to find a solution that works for them and the band.

Please forgive my emotion. I do want to sincerely thank you for working with students as this is very important and much needed in our society.

Best, Jon
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chilesaj2
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone that posted so far, I appreciate the feedback and I'm hoping this thread if staying active with responses won't anger people too much. It's a question that can easily do so and I can understand why.

Jon in response to your questions.

1) I didn't grow up with this ideology or concept. When I was in high school half the section was on Monette's and the other half Bachs etc. from my memory but we weren't forced on a particular piece so it's new to me. Only learned about it being a thing when learning everything I can about the top Drum Corps.

2) I played professionally in the Navy Band for 8 years and still gig some on the side when I have the chance. My last gig was with the #2 Iranian Pop Artist Shadmehr Aghili. I never once was in a situation in my life where I was put in a situation where everyone in the section had to be on the same mouthpiece.

3) Last year when they were all on the Curry's, I actually was on a Curry at the time.

4) Last year was the first year everyone played on the same mouthpiece for blend improvement, they won a lot before that switch though so I guess the answer is yes I had success in the past but last year we were bumped up a division and the majority of our competitions were out of state vs top tier schools.

So a little more to the story. The band director is a flute player. When I showed up as the new trumpet instructor I noticed everyone on Bach 3Cs and they told me she forces everyone to play that mouthpiece. When I confronted her about my concern with that..."being everything you all mentioned"...she said she only did by advice from a trumpet player she knew before I got there...someone currently majoring in performance...? Anyways, I was able to get her to have the kids play on what's comfortable for them.

I'm always striving to improve as a teacher. I've had a few students make All-State, some went on to study performance and received the top scholarship award. I'm definitely about teaching music first. They definitely understand the concepts of balancing/matching articulations/style/intonation etc. I also understand a mouthpiece that may be comfortable to one person may not be to another and blend should be taught and definitely not depended on by a mouthpiece but like I said I see both sides because...as someone mentioned earlier the top 10-11 Drum Corps are using Hammond pieces and the reason why is why I had everyone on Curry 3Cs last year. I listened to all the kids on their current pieces and then had them all put in the Curry 3Cs and play and I'm telling you there was a huge positive difference in sound/intonation across. I even recorded both and listened back to them later and was confused. Actually before I experimented with that I took each one individually to a practice room and had them play some lower register/upper register stuff chromatic stuff, scales to listen for articulation, lip slurs and songs on both pieces and focused on if the sound/intonation/projection was better. At the end, they all wanted to play on the Curry...except one person who wanted to stay on it and eventually later said he liked it more than his other piece.

I'm not agreeing or saying it's the right approach at all...nor...would I think it's a good idea for anyone to go up to a brass instructor in one of the top Drum Corps and tell him what he's doing is wrong because of different lip intrusions, we don't wear the same shoe analogies etc. They have success and I'm sure they tested out the results of having everyone on the same piece before implementing it and liked the results. This year I plan on having them back on what's comfortable for them but remember they all liked the Curry 3C better than what they were on anyway.

Like I said, I appreciate the feedback and keep them coming!! No negativity or feeling sensitive to comments coming from me but Jon made a good point and I felt maybe I should explain more.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugar coat it if you want, this is a band director abusing her power.
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Gottfried Reiche
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the biggest error in the thinking here is comparing a high school marching band (I don't care how good it is) to a top 12 DCI corps. They are NOT the same, and any DCI brass instructor would agree with that.

I don't know of ANY DCI brass instructor that has their own kids at their respective high school (or college) play the same mouthpiece. It works okay in DCI (although I still disagree with it) because of the intense work, plus players all at a high level, etc. The environment is completely different than ANY HS marching band.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As ridiculous as it is to force an entire section to play one mouthpiece, ironically, I think in most cases it will still be an overall improvement, if the mouthpiece chosen is a reasonable one (Curry 3C. CG3, Bach 3C or Reeves 43C are all examples of what I mean by reasonable). At least this way you eliminate the radical mouthpieces, meaning in most cases the Schilke A4A, Shew Lead or Ingram type radically small and shallow mouthpieces some of the misinformed kids are trying to play on, as well as the radically large Bach 1C or bigger mouthpieces other kids are struggling to play on.

I'm not saying the radical type mouthpieces (large or small) aren't the best for some players, but these players are few and far between. When looking at a pasture of horses or zebras, they're probably horses...

That said, a competent school band director would have his or her players start out with a baseline, general sized, common sense mouthpiece but then work individually with each student (and each student's private teacher if he or she has one) to make sure that mouthpiece is right for each individual player. There's no reason to let a lackadaisical attitude cause the (relatively few) outliers to be left in the dust with mouthpieces that don't work for them.

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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gottfried Reiche wrote:

It works okay in DCI (although I still disagree with it) because of the intense work, plus players all at a high level, etc. The environment is completely different than ANY HS marching band.


I have met many people from DCI's top 12 throughout the last several years and I've gotta state that the bold statement is just not accurate. There are many players at a high level in those groups, but there are just as many mediocre players hiding in the ranks as 3rd parts who can't play music that isn't the same thing rehearsed over and over again for several hours a day, over many weeks.
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rmch
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I don't understand: even if the top DCI corps all use Hammond mouthpieces, does that really mean each player uses the same size mouthpiece from Hammond's line?

I can understand the small potential benefits of everyone in a section using the same brand - certain manufacturers focus on design concepts which might lead to certain playing results for most players, perhaps in tone or projection (e.g. Hammond might use some backbore designs that have particular projection qualities that might be very useful for DCI players or something). Some manufacturers have certain strong points or maybe even focuses in their work - Al Cass, Callet, and Jet-Tone made successful lead/commercial pieces and offer a lot of variation in pieces within those playing scenarios, Dennis Wick and Bach have a lot of options within their orchestral range, etc.

Also, using the same brand means everyone is using the same measuring systems and nomenclature which could be helpful if a player needs to make a change to their gear and could give players a clear sense of which parts of the manufacturer's line each player should choose from based on their chair and ensemble needs (e.g. 3rd players generally shouldn't choose pieces that might cause them to play brighter than the lead players; the mellow, smokey sounding, jazz pieces should be avoided because they're less conducive to the sound concept and projection needs of a drum corps, etc.). This could be especially helpful for high school players that don't know a lot about what changing each mouthpiece component can do.

DCI also stresses uniformity of look and different mouthpiece manufacturers can have wildly different-looking blanks (like Monette vs. Schilke), so putting everyone on the same brand might earn them an extra point in the "uniformity of look category" or something like that.

All of this being said, these are knit-picky little details and even so, I doubt DCI trumpet sections use the same model of mouthpiece section-wide (if I'm wrong about this, please correct me ) and I can see this practice leading to some very frustrating results for high schoolers. Some people's faces just don't work with some mouthpieces - Bach 1 sizes are just too big for me to comfortably function on and Bach 3s don't feel much better, I bottom out on most of Schilke's shallower mouthpieces because the alpha angle doesn't agree with my amount of lip intrusion, some players back up on tight backbores, etc. Other mouthpieces even whole lines just work really well for a person - I've had magical success with Bob Reeves's work, in particular his 42SV for lead playing and his 42C for classical music - and it'd be a bummer to take that away from a young player who's just starting to get good. I think it could be helpful to have the section all playing on the same reputable brand (such as Curry), especially if you're able to work with each student to find the right rim size for them. Then they could all start on middle-of-the-road cups and backbores and if they decide they want to make a change from that, they could then figure it out over time.
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snichols
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Gottfried Reiche wrote:

It works okay in DCI (although I still disagree with it) because of the intense work, plus players all at a high level, etc. The environment is completely different than ANY HS marching band.


I have met many people from DCI's top 12 throughout the last several years and I've gotta state that the bold statement is just not accurate. There are many players at a high level in those groups, but there are just as many mediocre players hiding in the ranks as 3rd parts who can't play music that isn't the same thing rehearsed over and over again for several hours a day, over many weeks.


Lol, yep. This is quite true; I knew both great players and mediocre to not-so good players in top DCI groups. There are definitely a number of really great musicians in the groups, there's no doubt about it, but let's not over-romanticize it.
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