Identifying a Mysterious Flugelhorn

[MrLazzie]

Hello all,

I've had this flugelhorn in my possession for several years now, but I've never really found much of any information on it. Figured that throwing details of it out to some fellow horn connoisseurs might help identify what this horn is and its history.

As a bit of information on the horn, the horn is silver-plated. The leadpipe receiver is stamped with "Made in Czechoslovakia". The Czechoslovakia text is split in two, with "Czecho" and "slovakia" stacked and slightly overlapping. The valve piping is vertical for the first and third valve, though no water keys on any of the pipes. Only water key is for the main pipe itself, going to the bell. No serial number seems to be present, though the valves are sequentially numbered "133", "134", and "135", and second valve additionally has a dot stamped in directly below the 134 stamped on the valve. Piston valves, and springs are located at the bottom of the valve, free-floating and unsecured. Finally, the bell is engraved with a shield akin to a coat of arms and the text "Professional University Model" engraved onto the center of the shield. The "University" text is slanted upward to the right diagonally and embellished slightly differently, making me wonder if "University" is meant to be distinguished separately from the rest of the text, such as a maker or line.

I'm not versed well on historic Czech brass manufacturers, but manufacture would have likely needed to be within the 75-year span of Czechoslovakia's existence as a nation. The only manufacturer I know of in the region would be V.F. Cerveny, but I don't know their historic maker marks, and it would be nearly impossible that they would be the only manufacturers in Czechoslovakia of brass instruments.

All of this was brought on in part because I've been trying to figure out what mouthpiece taper is needed, as small morse/Bach taper is definitely *not* right (lots of looseness, and sinks in too deep). I ordered a Curry mouthpiece with a straight French taper, but it also seems loose. I have one unmarked mouthpiece that looks to be a large morse/standard taper, which seems to fit the best, but still light looseness, and I'm not sure if it fits due to misuse by the previous owner forcing mouthpieces to work that shouldn't, or what. The lead pipe is also original it seems, but no real maker marks or such to confirm for sure. I may eventually order a new lead pipe (or several) so I can use these mouthpieces I've collected trying to figure out which works for this horn.

So, horn historians and sleuths, any ideas? I'm at a loss on this thing, and I want to be able to enjoy this horn and learn its history. I'll try to answer any additional questions I can on it, and can provide some pictures if needed.

[oddchance]

I had read at one point in the past that there was a brass manufacturer - it might even have been Amati that built Flugels that would use the same taper as a regular trumpet mouthpiece. So a regular trumpet mouthpiece would indeed fit. But I read that and I've never seen one.
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70's era King Silver Flair

[Tpt_Guy]

I have an old Swiss Conn Flugel that no mouthpieces seemed to fit. I sent the leadpipe to Mark Curry and he measured it. It turned out the receiver required an oversized French shank mouthpiece. He made me a piece in the correct shank and I couldn't have asked for anything better.
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-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee

[oxleyk]

I had an old Czech-made Concertone trumpet with markings similar to what you describe. This was a brand sold my Montgomery Ward about a hundred years ago. The mouthpiece shank was smaller at the end and had a different rate of taper. Modern pieces would not fit.

[MrLazzie]

Hmm, interesting information so far! Gives some additional angles to look at. Sounds like I also need to contact Mark Curry and see if he can help resolve the leadpipe mystery once and for all.

Curious what other information people may have on even potential leads for more information on this thing. I'd not considered Montgomery Ward as a potential angle, but will certainly try looking into that as a possibility.

[LittleRusty]

[royjohn]

Perhaps you could try to see if the receiver taper is indeed worn. This could be one of those conundrums it is impossible to resolve, given the lack of living witnesses and written records. In the tuba world, with which I'm a bit more familiar, there were lots of small workshops in Czechoslovakia which made "stencil" instruments out of standard parts, so this could be something like that. Competently made, but possibly a name that was used by more than one shop.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Ed Kennedy]

Schilke used to make a flugel that used a trumpet taper mouthpiece. It was configured somewhat like the pre-183 Bach flugel.

[stumac]

The split name of Czech-Slovakia was the official name in 2 periods between WW1 and WW2, 1918-20 and 1938-39. During this period there were 59 manufacturers in the area, many making unbranded instruments for export.

A photo may help in identifying the possible maker.

Regards, Stuart.

[MrLazzie]

Sorry about a lack of replies. Got a fair bit going on, so response is a bit delayed. Going to hopefully find time to take some pictures and post them, just wanted to check in at least. The information is definitely interesting, and I'm taking notes. Just wanted to let people know I'm not one of those wanks that just shows up for a few posts and just disappears, which I've heard is a bit of a problem around here...

[homebilly]