A poll: between the lead player and the jazz book.

[Lionel]

A poll: Between the lead player and the jazz book in a standard big band of 4 - 5 trumpet. Which is more important?

That the lead trumpet player need better lead or jazz chops? All other elements being equal. Example both parties having equal skills at reading, intonation, ryhthm etc.

The question was posed some time ago on a forum where Bobby Shew was the emcee. In the described Q & A the consensus among the pros was that the jazz players eventually made the better lead players.

Of course Bobby Shew wasnt ever in a peer group struggling with range issues as are so many trumpet players. Anyone from within Shew's arm's reach probably wasnt going to suffer with range issues all that much.

So my guess is that Shew's poll may have tended to be more forgiving to jazz players.

One of the more interesting surprises which I received this past year was how beautiful of a trumpet player Buddy Childers was. More on him in a minute. Childers being the first trumpet on Stan Kenton's most famous and early years. This was back when Childers was on lead playing in the same section as Conte Condoli and Maynard Ferguson. Many people thought that Maynard was the lead player on the Kenton band but this was not technically true. Instead he played 3rd trumpet. Often joking that he was "the best 3rd chair trumpet player in Kenton's history"

Indeed the III trumpet part on Kenton's band became well known as "the scream chair" and was found home for the finest high note, jazz players in history. Other names on Kenton's III'rd book include,

Bud Brisbois,
Bill Chase, and
Frank Minear

All heavies.

But back to Buddy Childers... A little less than a year ago I began to investigate the biography of Buddy Childers. After all he had played lead on Kenton's band the longest. Starting I'm told after his mere 16th birthday! Helluva accomplishment to win the lead book by age sixteen.

And Childers absolutely hammered the lead book! He good to high G and A night after night and year after year. True Maynard or whomever on 3rd did play the bulk of the double C's. However I have played in bands covering lots of Kenton charts. The tunes in which Childers played lead on where among the most strenuous ever. Charts consistently going to high G. And Childers did it all.

And so it was much to my surprise to learn that Childers finally did cut a solo album. Even more astonishing was that he didn't play many high notes on the record. Instead Childers solo work on Youtube while taking a break from Kenton is some of the coolest straight ahead jazz ever recorded! All in all? Childers as a jazz player had no peers. His work and improvisation ranks right up there with all the jazz greats. Like Bunny Berrigan or even Miles.

So look him up on Youtube and prepare yourself for a treat.
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[Lionel]

Keeping my response separate from the others. I'm a little biased from my experience. As I have heard strong trumpet players who weren't well noted for improvisational skills and found them a better fit on lead than someone who plays lead like it was just a job.
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[lgt0412]

In my opinion ...... this is like asking if it's more important for a baseball pitcher to have sick curve ball or to be able to hit at the plate well. Both are great, but his job is to pitch .... Not to hit.

If you have a lead player who can improvise, great. But his job is to lead the section. And if they are playing the "lead" book they will need to have a strong upper register. That doesn't mean they need to have a double C. But they need to be able to efficiently, consistently, have the chops to read the notes on the page. And that also doesn't give them license to play everything up the octave or hit the highest, nastiest, out of tune, squeaky note they can hunt for at the end of every chart. Those people are NOT lead trumpet players.

And finally .... then I'll end my rant lol ..... all of the people I see posting video after video of them fumbling through the nastiness until they land on a "double C" ...... if you can do that but cant produce a decent tone between low G and G above the staff ..... You're useless. Just my opinion.
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[jicetp]

My answer would depend on which gig the lead trumpet would play.
Honestly, the ' technical ' player with great range but who can't swing bothers me on a Basie gig for instance. I much prefer the Jazz guy, shaping the melodies as a solo.
On the other side, when you have the fine Jazz player suffering from playing at his maximum, chipping notes, forcing it.....for some more modern stuff ( ie Goodwin, Kubis....), I'll bet on my High note guy. Not that this music isn't to be played musically, but when you have to play the notes, give the part to someone who can play them !

I lead an amateur Big Band, and I try to give parts to te trumpets so the music could benefit from this choice. I have two ' lead ' players : the one with the beautiful sound and ' instinct ' but limited in the High C-D range ( not too often please ), the other can blast off some F-Gs ( even higher when he presses hard - but I wont tell him ).
I kind of try to ' divise ' the music, so each as his bone !
Melodic stuff such as ballads, or Basie's.....you name it go the Jazz guy.
Most of the Latin, Rock, Funk stuff goes to the other.

But sometimes, I say to the trumpets to drop off the 1st part, or play it 8vb if I suspect it might improve the music.

[HERMOKIWI]

I'm defining "good jazz skills" to mean "jazz improvisation skills."

Assuming the player can play stylistically correct it's not important at all that the lead player have jazz improvisation skills. It's far more important for the lead player to have the necessary high chops. It's even more important for the lead player to play with technical accuracy and have a strong, full sound.
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[jonalan]

Jazz style - articulation, phrasing, etc. - is more important than just high chops. Although as many have stated, you have to be able to cover the part.

If there are several folks that can play Gs and As, then the lead player has to be the best at interpreting jazz and leading the band, not just screaming high notes.

In my opinion, it seems to me that too much emphasis on high notes, at the expense of jazz style, has become the trend in recent years.
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[kehaulani]

On internet forums. Isn't a different story in real life?
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[Bill Ortiz]

Being a good lead player isn't all about high notes. Often in big bands the lead player isn't the person with the highest range-it's about LEADING the band.
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[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
I agree with Bill. It is nice to have a great F and G that is consistent and in tune, but it is really about leading the band with the correct style. The strength of the section is made by having a competent lead player, even though they don't have double A's or higher and a great soloist that knows the rep, style and can improvise. Most of those players have a decent high range anyway. The third and fourth players just have to be good followers/listeners and the ability to play cleanly with the same articulation. This is the formula for a great section.
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Christian K. Peters
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[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
I agree with Bill. It is nice to have a great F and G that is consistent and in tune, but it is really about leading the band with the correct style. The strength of the section is made by having a competent lead player, even though they don't have double A's or higher and a great soloist that knows the rep, style and can improvise. Most of those players have a decent high range anyway. The third and fourth players just have to be good followers/listeners and the ability to play cleanly with the same articulation. This is the formula for a great section.
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Christian K. Peters
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[JoseLindE4]

I voted jazz skills.

Both "good jazz skills" and "good high note range" are a little ambiguous. Obviously at a certain point, a player lacks the notes to cut the part, but I think that bar is lower than the internet says.

I think Bobby Shew's point (and we should listen when Bobby Shew speaks) is that style is the biggest separator between boring and compelling music and that style should be an aspiring lead player's primary focus.

[cheiden]

Depends on the band. But in general, I don't expect the lead to do much improv so of the two options, that would lead me to answer high notes. But I've heard guys play high and not lead well. I even got a lead spot from a guy that could play a good bit higher than me, but the band leader thought I had better style.

A good lead is hard to pin down, but we all know a good one when we hear them.
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[PH]

You want a lead player to be able to phrase and feel time like a jazz player. Most of my favorite lead players are also good to great jazz players.
Snooky
Benny Bailey
Buddy Childers
Wayne
Jimmy Nottingham
Tony Kadleck
Gisbert
Byron Stripling
Shew
Chuck Findlay

A few learn to phrase like jazz players without being great jazz players. I think of Al Porcino & Earl Gardner. But generally a jazz player feels the music.
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[dershem]

A few weeks ago, my lead player didn't show up to a rehearsal. None of the rest of us are lead players, and I ended up with the book for the night n(I've been getting as many trombone calls as trumpet calls lately, and more and more of my trumpet gigs have been small combo stuff). The solos that night were fine, but because my lead chops are not what they should be, the section was just not tight. And that's what a solid lead player (spending most of his time abovethe staff) needs to do - play firm and strongand lead by example.

[rufflicks]

Simple: Chops and Style, anything else is icing on the cake. Seems like you want to have yours and eat it too. Lol.

Best, Jon
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[markp]

They say there is no such thing as a stupid question, so I'll go along with that.



The lead player must be able to play the high notes. He/she must also have a good understanding of the jazz style of playing.

But if you mean the ability to improvise, that isn't required of the person playing lead on a particular chart in which no improvisation is required..

However, rudimentary ability to improvise can only enhance the lead player's overall understanding and ability to lead the section.

If you can do both, you should. I spent a long time thinking that I would just be a lead player--a specialist. I had a lot more fun and got a lot more gigs when I learned to add improvisation to my repertoire.

[bnsd]

in these responses I'm seeing some nuances discussed regarding "jazz player"

Some are calling that an improv soloist, but I believe the intent was a "jazz player" in "articulating the parts, and setting the feel for the rest of the section"... in that capacity, I agree with a good lead player has a good jazz feel, regardless of their improv skills.

Range, endurance and feel are all required to be a good lead player, but I'll take the feel first, assuming the other two are passable.

[Richard III]

[Ed Kennedy]

I heard the Thad Jones Mel Lewis band in Chicago in the '70's. Al Porcino was playing lead and Jon Faddis was playing 3rd and scream just like Buddy Childers and Maynard Fergusen

[razeontherock]

A good lead player DOES play jazz.

He does not need to improvise as dazzlingly as the player on the solo chair, which is a good thing for cats like me.

@Christian K Peters: you can say that again! Lol

Goz always gives me goosebumps. I am not one of the handful of lead players that is instantly recognisable by tone, but I've always had a strong, commanding sound, excellent intonation, and show up having studied the chart. Those around me feel that counts.