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Wynton's Bach


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Felix c
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

65 Bell. I will be looking for this specifications.
Some un common
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought he used to played a Bach 72 Vindabona with a Bach 1.25C.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite frankly, I would think Wynton doesn't really care what most prefer.
He plays a Monette because, as stated before, they give him exactly what he wants for what he plays and the Bach horns do not do that.
Comparing Wynton from his 80s recordings to what he does today is rather pointless.
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out this clip of Wynton playing Louis Armstrong's old Selmer... Pretty cool clip on so many levels!

https://vimeo.com/213245842
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thomasmarriott
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:
bach_again wrote:
Yeah I think hot house flowers was his last album on the Bach. He played a Monette mouthpiece on his Bach for a bit before he made the swap.

As for preference? Wynton on Bach, any day. He's a genius of the trumpet, but I prefer his sound on the Bach.

Mike


Actually I think that's backwards... On Black Codes he's playing an early M with a Bach Mouthpiece. I think J Mood is the first album all M equipment but I'm not sure of that. The Tomasi Album same thing (early M C but Bach mpc).

-T


The cover of "Black Codes From The Underground" features a photo of an early Monette, but I've seen photos from the recording session and Wynton was definitely playing a Bach trumpet in the studio on that date. I know it's trivial, but it's some good jazz trumpet trivia!
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thomasmarriott wrote:
TrentAustin wrote:
bach_again wrote:
Yeah I think hot house flowers was his last album on the Bach. He played a Monette mouthpiece on his Bach for a bit before he made the swap.

As for preference? Wynton on Bach, any day. He's a genius of the trumpet, but I prefer his sound on the Bach.

Mike


Actually I think that's backwards... On Black Codes he's playing an early M with a Bach Mouthpiece. I think J Mood is the first album all M equipment but I'm not sure of that. The Tomasi Album same thing (early M C but Bach mpc).

-T


The cover of "Black Codes From The Underground" features a photo of an early Monette, but I've seen photos from the recording session and Wynton was definitely playing a Bach trumpet in the studio on that date. I know it's trivial, but it's some good jazz trumpet trivia!


That's awesome! My favorite trumpet sound ever is on that album (that and Uan's Chinatown solo).

Hope you're well!
-T
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Vince.Green
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I'm another fan of those early recordings on his Bach but yes, I enjoy his playing on whatever he is playing on. Here is a link to another one where I really like his sound, this is on an early Monette horn and mouthpiece but still has some similar characteristics as his Bah set up. enjoy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiLedWX0zBE
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Wynton sounds fantastic on his Monette. Although, I totally understand where many of you are coming from, in that you're wanting to hear a trumpet sound, and Wynton's Monette sounds is somewhere between a trumpet, a flugel and a tenor sax.
I totally understand why he would want that sound - it's about as close to a human voice as you can get from a trumpet. Which you may or may not want. I've heard Wynton say somewhere that he thinks there is too much screaming/shouting in Jazz these days, and that his kind of Jazz is an "intense Mezzo-piano" and that he thinks jazz should mostly be soft.

That said, Wynton has several classical albums where he's playing monette equipment -- I don't know if it's different or the same as what he uses for his Jazz playing -- and he sound totally different Not a 'bach' sound, but still totally different except when he is articulating softly, then you hear that typical monette 'fff' sound of the air moving through the trumpet.

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmojc2QLXOw

Then again, on Rustiques you can hear that hiss a fair amount of the time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rVbM7N8wKw

*Shrugs* I think his sound when playing jazz makes 100% sense to me. Reminds me sometimes of Chet Baker whom I love
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
That said, Wynton has several classical albums where he's playing monette equipment -- I don't know if it's different or the same as what he uses for his Jazz playing -- and he sound totally different Not a 'bach' sound, but still totally different except when he is articulating softly, then you hear that typical monette 'fff' sound of the air moving through the trumpet


I am pretty sure On The 20th Century is the only classical album that Wynton plays a Monette on. Both the links you provided are from that same album. I seem to remember hearing Wynton wasn't happy with how this album turned out. Whether or not it was because he was playing on a boat anchor instead of a trumpet, I don't know.

I don't think Wynton has put out a classical album in over 20 years, the last being In Gabriel's Garden and I believe he's playing his Schilke piccolo on that album.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Wynton has "Monette 4 life" tattooed on his inner thigh. Don't ask me how I know this.

How do you know that?
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Wynton has "Monette 4 life" tattooed on his inner thigh. Don't ask me how I know this.

How do you know that?



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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
I am pretty sure On The 20th Century is the only classical album that Wynton plays a Monette on. Both the links you provided are from that same album. I seem to remember hearing Wynton wasn't happy with how this album turned out. Whether or not it was because he was playing on a boat anchor instead of a trumpet, I don't know.

I don't think Wynton has put out a classical album in over 20 years, the last being In Gabriel's Garden and I believe he's playing his Schilke piccolo on that album.


The remarkable Tomasi/Jolivet recording with the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Esa Pekka Salonen was performed on an early Monette C trumpet, belonging to Charlie Schlueter. On the 20th Century has WM playing both Raja Bb and C trumpets, the latter of which I had the privilege of playing as Wynton had gifted it to my friend and colleague, Joey Pero, while he was his student at Juilliard.

It is true that the trumpet community was particularly unkind in its reaction to that musically-commanding and technically-brilliant recording, but I believe the 'vocal' qualities highlighted in an above post get closer to the point, and avoid these 'boat anchor' pejoratives which say absolutely nothing about the quality of sound nor the musical expression.
I know from Joey that WM had requested a Raja C trumpet with a diffuse characteristic - not a 'ping' oriented, clarion sound, which clearly many trumpeters prefer. If classical trumpet recordings were listened to by music lovers only, who's to say what the reaction to this impressive recording would be? Unfortunately for the state of the industry and the possibility of musical progress within our art, it seems that vociferously reactionary trumpet 'experts' are the core market for such musical documents.

Finally, the "Mr. Jelly Lord" Standard Time recording, as well as WM's "Soldier's Tale" companion piece, "A Fiddler's Tale" were recorded on a highly decorated and engraved Monette 900 Series C Cornet, which I believe is now in the possession of Jerome Austin, who also studied with WM at Juilliard.

A final note, found when doing a search here on TH for Jerome - it appears that the gifted young trumpet soloist, Natalie Dungey, was coached by Jerome prior to this performance of the Hummel, which she plays on WM's Schilke/Bach Eb trumpet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq4vWq4PpNA

In closing, I do believe there's a clear difference in both sound and approach from Wynton's early recordings and his more recent ones: He has developed as an artist, and has gravitated towards equipment which allow him to most clearly connect with his musical voice. If you preferred the early stuff with the Jazz Messengers, etc. well, we're very lucky to have so many documents of that stage of his musical development. We're also extraordinary fortunate to have had such a talented, giving, creative artist to follow all of these decades. I play Monette. There are many artists I respect who did and now play something else, or who played something else, and now play Monette...or play lots of different things. I never presume to know better than them, and I'm always eager to hear the musical communication emanating from their bell.

Happy practicing!

-DB
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rmch
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Check out this clip of Wynton playing Louis Armstrong's old Selmer... Pretty cool clip on so many levels!

https://vimeo.com/213245842


That's an amazing clip, Trent - his sound has a little of Pops pointedness, forwardness and shine in it (thanks to the horn, I guess). What on earth is the mouthpiece he's playing on? It looks like the blank has a lot of added weight to the shank. Anyways, thanks for sharing it!
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
I think Wynton sounds fantastic on his Monette. Although, I totally understand where many of you are coming from, in that you're wanting to hear a trumpet sound, and Wynton's Monette sounds is somewhere between a trumpet, a flugel and a tenor sax.

I totally understand why he would want that sound - it's about as close to a human voice as you can get from a trumpet. Which you may or may not want.

*Shrugs* I think his sound when playing jazz makes 100% sense to me. Reminds me sometimes of Chet Baker whom I love


(Italics added for clarity)

I like Wynton's sound a lot on his other classical recordings, but am not terribly fond of this one (despite it being excellent playing). I agree with you about the voice comparison, but I would add that it doesn't (to me) really sound like a classical voice model. I like Chet Baker, too, but I'm not terribly into hearing a Chet Baker version of the Hindemith Sonata.

Also, slightly off to the side of the topic, but Gunther Schuller's statement in the liner notes of On The 20th Century that none of the music on this album is among the memorable classical pantheon, but are made attractive by Wynton's playing has always bugged me. I'm not blaming Wynton for saying this, but I don't think that Ravel, Enesco, and Hindemith (or any of the others on this album) need Wynton's help to be worth hearing. (Or that of any other trumpet soloist, to be clear.)
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rmch wrote:
Quote:
Check out this clip of Wynton playing Louis Armstrong's old Selmer... Pretty cool clip on so many levels!

https://vimeo.com/213245842


That's an amazing clip, Trent - his sound has a little of Pops pointedness, forwardness and shine in it (thanks to the horn, I guess). What on earth is the mouthpiece he's playing on? It looks like the blank has a lot of added weight to the shank. Anyways, thanks for sharing it!


Tom Williams (the other trumpeter in the clip and a great player in his own right) said it was his Laskey 66C he let Wynton borrow as the Monette didn't fit into the receiver of the horn. Sounded pretty amazing considering it was a new horn and mpc combo. Wish the sound guy would have chosen a better Mic considering Wynton's style to play for the audience rather than be glued to a microphone. A decent room mic or ribbon would have been a much better choice.


I think the mpc had a curry sleeve or something on it.

Best,
T
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rmch wrote:
Quote:
Check out this clip of Wynton playing Louis Armstrong's old Selmer... Pretty cool clip on so many levels!

https://vimeo.com/213245842


That's an amazing clip, Trent - his sound has a little of Pops pointedness, forwardness and shine in it (thanks to the horn, I guess). What on earth is the mouthpiece he's playing on? It looks like the blank has a lot of added weight to the shank. Anyways, thanks for sharing it!


That clip is awesome, as is Wynton. No doubt equipment matters, but I bet playing that horn spurs the imagination pretty strongly towards copying Pops.
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dmamazon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i was still trying to find the clip I posted about earlier...still haven't found it. I found something close though...it's from 1982 and he's definitely playing a bach strad of some sort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YjI901sef8

hope i did the link right. a good wynton feature starts at 28:12. I will find the right link eventually! I couldn't identify the mpc though. If you look at the trumpet it definitely has a very fast flare.
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmamazon wrote:
well, i was still trying to find the clip I posted about earlier...still haven't found it. I found something close though...it's from 1982 and he's definitely playing a bach strad of some sort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YjI901sef8

hope i did the link right. a good wynton feature starts at 28:12. I will find the right link eventually! I couldn't identify the mpc though. If you look at the trumpet it definitely has a very fast flare.


Man, Wynton is 20 or maybe 21 years old here. Pretty ridiculous.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
I think Wynton sounds fantastic on his Monette. Although, I totally understand where many of you are coming from, in that you're wanting to hear a trumpet sound, and Wynton's Monette sounds is somewhere between a trumpet, a flugel and a tenor sax.

I totally understand why he would want that sound - it's about as close to a human voice as you can get from a trumpet. Which you may or may not want.

*Shrugs* I think his sound when playing jazz makes 100% sense to me. Reminds me sometimes of Chet Baker whom I love


(Italics added for clarity)

I like Wynton's sound a lot on his other classical recordings, but am not terribly fond of this one (despite it being excellent playing). I agree with you about the voice comparison, but I would add that it doesn't (to me) really sound like a classical voice model. I like Chet Baker, too, but I'm not terribly into hearing a Chet Baker version of the Hindemith Sonata.

Also, slightly off to the side of the topic, but Gunther Schuller's statement in the liner notes of On The 20th Century that none of the music on this album is among the memorable classical pantheon, but are made attractive by Wynton's playing has always bugged me. I'm not blaming Wynton for saying this, but I don't think that Ravel, Enesco, and Hindemith (or any of the others on this album) need Wynton's help to be worth hearing. (Or that of any other trumpet soloist, to be clear.)


Regarding the sound thing.

My partner is a professional classical pianist. Much better musician than I am. I was listening to that recording of Wynton a while ago (they didn't know who I was listening to), and they heard and replied "That's a really nice sound, why does he sound like that?" and I explained that Wynton plays on pretty speciality equipment. Their response was a bewildered sought of "why doesn't everyone want to sound like that?" as though it were an obviously a superior timbre.

For many, the less overt brassiness of the sound makes the playing feel much more expressive and musical in a way that seemed obviously superior. I think for non-brass players, the 'ring' we all strive for in our sound can get overwhelming/aurally fatiguing, like a singer only using one syllable?

I dunno. I was recently listening back to some Manny Laureno clips on youtube. This one in particular I find really interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjKzYhe8Snc

At the 3:00 minute mark, you hear him up close, and then from 10 paces away, the out in the hall. The close sound was just weird, and I didn't like it at all. Maybe that hall would make anyone/anything sound good.
The only thing I particularly disliked is the repeated low around 3:45 which just sounds off to me.
Otherwise, it seems to me that his use of that Monette sound is allowing him to be expressive in a way that a Bach probably wouldn't.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:
rmch wrote:
Quote:
Check out this clip of Wynton playing Louis Armstrong's old Selmer... Pretty cool clip on so many levels!

https://vimeo.com/213245842


That's an amazing clip, Trent - his sound has a little of Pops pointedness, forwardness and shine in it (thanks to the horn, I guess). What on earth is the mouthpiece he's playing on? It looks like the blank has a lot of added weight to the shank. Anyways, thanks for sharing it!


Tom Williams (the other trumpeter in the clip and a great player in his own right) said it was his Laskey 66C he let Wynton borrow as the Monette didn't fit into the receiver of the horn. Sounded pretty amazing considering it was a new horn and mpc combo. Wish the sound guy would have chosen a better Mic considering Wynton's style to play for the audience rather than be glued to a microphone. A decent room mic or ribbon would have been a much better choice.


I think the mpc had a curry sleeve or something on it.

Best,
T


Totally agree about the mic, Trent!

He sounds amazing on that setup!! There was another clip of him in Brazil or somewhere playing someone else's horn and sounded amazing.

I've heard he used to show up to all night jam sessions without a horn and blow other people's gear and cut them on it. I think he got some kind of infection doing this too often and ended up with some chop problems. I can't remember where I read/heard this story. YMMV.

Mike
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