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Getting a "sizzle"


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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Getting a "sizzle" Reply with quote

Havent seen the topic come up. "Sizzle" I might partially define as the desired tone that a jazz or commercial lead player wants on his high notes. That and the tone which his classically trained peer does not. He wants to avoid.

Whereas a good sizzling high F or G might win you a gig on lead or in a hot R & B band? You most definitely do not want your high notes in Brahms or Bach to sizzle.

Maynard describes in one of his priceless clinic Youtube videos the difference between those who sizzle and those who dont. And he elaborated by saying words to the effect that he had never seen a no-pressure advocate produce a sizzle in the upper register. Yet after saying that he also mentioned that he had great admiration for the tone and technical prowess of those same no-pressure players. I'm gonna define the average no-pressure player as usually being a classically trained picollo trumpet player. The kind of smooth smooth altussimo player who just lightly touches notes around high G or so. And I completely agree with Maynard. These people are amazing. Able to calmly blow the extreme upper register works of Bach and violin concertos by Vivaldi. That and play them all day long. As Maurice Andre and others do.

So I asked myself, "Well shucks Lionel can YOU get a sizzle without increasing the arm pressure much"?

And to my surprise I really couldnt pull it off. Didnt have to jam much to get the tone to sound jazzy enough. But needed to increase the arm pressure a little.

I guess that when a classical trumpet player "sizzles" his high D? He's over blowing to the music director's ears. But when a lead player gets it? He's hired.

So I tried playing various volumes on my high E. Third ledger line above high C. And I can easily play this note with the horn valve casing laying only upon my palm. No addition pressure save & except what gravity allows against the friction of my open palm.

To my surprise I could get close to a double forte (I really do "own" that note lol) without any arm pressure at all. Yet the tone did not sizzle. Later I played with both hands on the horn and was able to sizzle but oddly I could do it at different volumes. Usually when I'm into a sizzle the trumpets are all up high and loud.

In the final analysis I decided that I could occassionally play a lead trumpet line without sizzling. That it wasnt always necessary. But it sure is a handy concept.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I have found is that certain mpc cup parameters contribute to sizzle. The best example of this I have encountered was of course made by Greg Black; he made it for Rick Henley. GR's sz cup shares some of the same properties, departing from the usual GR sound. The contours from cup to Venturi are critical for any result, in this case you want a tight exit from the cup into the Venturi; i.e., a sharp curve there, which necessitates a flat-ish bottom.

That is exactly opposite from what I prefer to play. I prefer a more rounded, funnel like exit from the cup. Greg's M cup has that. I'm not sure I really maximize my sizzle. I like a heavy, thick sound. Dark with an edge? I've heard Maynard's sound described that way, and I sure dig it in his prime. I can put an edge on a rubber ball, and I'm naturally a bright player.

Is it possible to maximize both 'oomph' and sizzle?
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Define sizzle for me please in your wording for me. I always defined it as slightly (8-12 cents sharp) and loud. I have a good enough ear that I can pick this out (wish my playing kept up with my ear). I'm about 2.5 years into a comeback and have worked pretty hard to get a hi g back and my natural tendency is on key as I dont blow nearly as hard as I did during big band days. Also I increase pressure evenly as I ascend, lightly and have much more endurance than if I had stayed with the old loud and proud way of playing. More or less I use same equipment ML bore open leadpipe and open bell throat, and a .600 medium cup MP. I dont use nearly as much pressure as I did when I bled after a 4 hour gig. If I can do a hi G in tune on demand - wont that get me a place on the stage. Back in the day I only knew or had personally met 2 people who had on demand dbl. hi c's., Bill Chase and Larry Ford both absolute monsters of trumpet, and this was during the 60's when the big bands were strong. Bill had a sizzle but a tuned play too, I dont think Larry Ford ever played off center. So I am curious if there is something more to 'sizzle' than I know about. Never heard anyone get yelled at for not having sizzle, but come in too far off and it will be noted IMO.

I'm not trying to be difficult I just want to know if I have 'my definition' right, and want to know why its desirable if its correct.
Thanks,
Rod
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is difficult to convey the sound of a trumpet in words alone. Here is a clip of Carl Saunders. If this is "sizzle" I want all of it that I can get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSXrmVCzJMs

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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, "sizzle" is something that comes quite easily on a Calicchio 1S/2, regardless of mouthpiece. Just a little extra "push" and there it is. It takes a bit more of that push, but the same thing happens on an Olds Recording, and it's very much like the famed Calicchio sizzle. Other than a Bb Aubertin that sounds more like a 1S/2 than you might expect, I haven't run across other horns that get that effect quite so easily, nor so pleasingly.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChopsGone wrote:
To me, "sizzle" is something that comes quite easily on a Calicchio 1S/2, regardless of mouthpiece. Just a little extra "push" and there it is. It takes a bit more of that push, but the same thing happens on an Olds Recording, and it's very much like the famed Calicchio sizzle. Other than a Bb Aubertin that sounds more like a 1S/2 than you might expect, I haven't run across other horns that get that effect quite so easily, nor so pleasingly.

I know what you mean about the different timbre of some horns and some take sizzle to brittle. Do you think the size is more horn than player?
Rod
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Rod notes below, something that helps with sizzle is to play on top of the pitch a bit. Sometimes in a loud band I'll pull my tuning slide out a little extra so I can play on top of the pitch and still be in tune. That can help your sound cut, which is helpful in a loud band. Listen to Dizzy and you'll hear what I mean.

Lightweight gear can help produce a hot "burn" to the sound when you push it hard. My 8310z sure does.

I really don't think it's a matter of overblowing, which makes the trumpet sound flabby and weak, and that sound won't cut through a loud ensemble. It think it's more about being on top of the pitch and having a sound that is very exciting and cuts through even a loud band.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
As Rod notes below, something that helps with sizzle is to play on top of the pitch a bit. Sometimes in a loud band I'll pull my tuning slide out a little extra so I can play on top of the pitch and still be in tune. That can help your sound cut, which is helpful in a loud band.

That's a great way to chop out fast.

My high school jazz band students tend to do this as a means to get more cut in their sounds in jazz band, but the net result is that once their chops start to tire, the pitch sags, which causes intonation problems throughout the section and band, and they chop out faster than they should.

I'm not sure it comes down to physical pressure either. There is always going to be some pressure - it's inevitable. I think some players can handle more pressure than others. I know that I've always cranked on a lot of mouthpiece pressure, but I tend to see it as a balanced thing - for the amount of pressure I'm producing, I'm also pushing a lot of air.

I think that equipment can make a difference too. On these two recordings - live recordings captured off of the sound board - I'm using my Jupiter 1600i Ingram with a Warburton 4SVW/KT mouthpiece - that whole setup was chosen specifically so I could play freely in the middle of the pitch and get the kind of brightness and cut that I wanted for this band.

https://soundcloud.com/trickg/i-want-you-back-new-monopoly-live

https://soundcloud.com/trickg/downtown-new-monopoly-live
(trumpet solo starts at 1:58 )

With that equipment setup, I don't think about having to push to get a sizzle - I'm just playing straight up the middle, which is how I want it.
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ATrumpetBrony
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if I had to at the very least define "sizzle" for myself, it'd have most to do with a note coming out feeling like a sort of "whistle" - pure, air-driven note, vs. what I like to imagine has a hair more pressure and bit more lip/tongue action.

At least when I switch style between classical and big band-type stuff, these are perceived differences that are made in my high-range playing. Of course I'm only on the one side of the horn.

I'm, of course, a noob... don't flame me!
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel - like I was asking you in another thread - it's your throat! Tighten up your throat dude! Aren't you using like 22 throats are something in those shallow schilke pieces? Get the same Schilke piece size with a standard throat when you want to sizzle, and use your opened throat when you want a darker sound. All the best, Lex
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I studied with Leon Merian for some time. He taught "sizzle" sometimes called it putting a "spin" on the sound. His book Trumpet Isometrics is back in publication. I recommend it:

https://qpress.ca/product/trumpet-isometrics-leon-merian-pdf/

Try rolling the tongue forward into a hiss producing "small, fast" air. Cresendo and put some vibrato on it.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Turkle wrote:
As Rod notes below, something that helps with sizzle is to play on top of the pitch a bit. Sometimes in a loud band I'll pull my tuning slide out a little extra so I can play on top of the pitch and still be in tune. That can help your sound cut, which is helpful in a loud band.

That's a great way to chop out fast.

My high school jazz band students tend to do this as a means to get more cut in their sounds in jazz band, but the net result is that once their chops start to tire, the pitch sags, which causes intonation problems throughout the section and band, and they chop out faster than they should.

I'm not sure it comes down to physical pressure either. There is always going to be some pressure - it's inevitable. I think some players can handle more pressure than others. I know that I've always cranked on a lot of mouthpiece pressure, but I tend to see it as a balanced thing - for the amount of pressure I'm producing, I'm also pushing a lot of air.

I think that equipment can make a difference too. On these two recordings - live recordings captured off of the sound board - I'm using my Jupiter 1600i Ingram with a Warburton 4SVW/KT mouthpiece - that whole setup was chosen specifically so I could play freely in the middle of the pitch and get the kind of brightness and cut that I wanted for this band.

https://soundcloud.com/trickg/i-want-you-back-new-monopoly-live

https://soundcloud.com/trickg/downtown-new-monopoly-live
(trumpet solo starts at 1:58 )

With that equipment setup, I don't think about having to push to get a sizzle - I'm just playing straight up the middle, which is how I want it.


Pat, you sound great on those clips! That solo at 1:58, isn't that at least 2 trumpets?

To the OP, I would not confuse sizzle with being out of tune.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Pat, you sound great on those clips! That solo at 1:58, isn't that at least 2 trumpets?

Thanks! No - it's just me, although my sound might be bleeding into another mic on stage, so it sounds duplicated. It's actually written as a soli with me and the sax player, but on that particular gig, he was fiddling with something - I don't remember what - it was his in-ears mix, or his in-ears cable wasn't plugged all the way in, or something like that. In any case, he wasn't playing.

I'd like to think that I've got some sizzle with my sound using that setup. The truth is, I've always had a pretty bright sound no matter what I'm playing on, and I've actually taken some steps to mitigate that a bit with another horn I've been working with for the last few weeks - a Bach Strad ML/37 with a Blackburn leadpipe. I wanted a horn that I thought would work well for everything, and while it's not quite as brash on the edges as the Jupiter 1600i, with the Warburton mouthpiece it's still pretty bright while maintaining a darker timbre with the Curry 3C. I've been using for classical playing.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Define sizzle for me please in your wording for me. I always defined it as slightly (8-12 cents sharp) and loud. I have a good enough ear that I can pick this out (wish my playing kept up with my ear). I'm about 2.5 years into a comeback and have worked pretty hard to get a hi g back and my natural tendency is on key as I dont blow nearly as hard as I did during big band days. Also I increase pressure evenly as I ascend, lightly and have much more endurance than if I had stayed with the old loud and proud way of playing. More or less I use same equipment ML bore open leadpipe and open bell throat, and a .600 medium cup MP. I dont use nearly as much pressure as I did when I bled after a 4 hour gig. If I can do a hi G in tune on demand - wont that get me a place on the stage. Back in the day I only knew or had personally met 2 people who had on demand dbl. hi c's., Bill Chase and Larry Ford both absolute monsters of trumpet, and this was during the 60's when the big bands were strong. Bill had a sizzle but a tuned play too, I dont think Larry Ford ever played off center. So I am curious if there is something more to 'sizzle' than I know about. Never heard anyone get yelled at for not having sizzle, but come in too far off and it will be noted IMO.

I'm not trying to be difficult I just want to know if I have 'my definition' right, and want to know why its desirable if its correct.
Thanks,
Rod


Its not necessarily a sharp pitch at all. Although it could have the same effect as sharpness in sectional work.

I would define "sizzle" as a mild to moderate overblowing of the tone in the upper register. Undesireable in classical work while very desireable in commercial lead work.

Trumpet players who had lots of sizzle were Bill Chase and Lin Bivisno. A psir if Italian stallions back in the day. So similar in style and appearance that Ive sometimes mused they were separated at birth.

Although Louis Armstrong didnt produce tons of upper register recordings he still had fine high notes. And even his middle register sizzled.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I think of as "sizzle" has to do with an emphasis of certain overtones - an edge or bite in the sound. I attribute it to getting to a certain threshold of energy put behind the sound along with equipment that facilitates it.

I suppose this is an example of "sizzle" in sound - playing a Getzen Eterna Severinsen using a Bobby Shew Lead mp. The Tascam recorder I was using records things on the bright side as well, so it contributes some edge to the sound.

https://soundcloud.com/brassplyer/moving-air

For me Doc has the patent on sizzle. Something about his whole setup really makes it happen. Evident here even in the somewhat degraded audio.



Link

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tptguy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think of two ways to get sizzle in the sound. The first is to create compression in the mouth before the air hits the lips. With lip-to-lip compression, fresh lips give a pinched, unstable sound when blown hard. And tiring lips produce a spread and flabby sound, flat on the pitch. But in-the-mouth compression puts an energetic zip on the sound that is clear and really sizzles. Anything from Harry James is a good example. John Liddle's album "Trumpet Roller Coaster" is another excellent example. And, of course, many more.

Another way to get some sizzle is with a lightweight bell. That's actually distortion, but it's often used with mics to record artificial sizzle. This quickly gets tiring to ears, but it's considered an acceptable short term effect.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found an article in the ITG Journal, "What Causes the Sizzle Point?" by Thomas Moore (March 2006). The article tells of research done by scientists in Europe around 1996 to figure out what's going on when that sizzle, brassy high overtones, appears in the sound of a trumpet.

Using fancy equipment, these researchers found that a shock wave appears in the trumpet when the sizzle point is reached. In 2003, researchers at Penn State were able to photograph this shock wave using something called "Schlieren techniques." The shock wave doesn't travel far, but its effect carries in the sound heard by the audience.

Moore wrote that the sizzle point is determined primarily by how loud you're playing and the shape of the bore in the instrument. Instruments with a straighter taper and a more cylindrical bore make it easier for players to reach the sizzle point.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings,

I would disagree on that sizzle is unwanted in classical music. Actually, while indeed not desireable in solo or small group playing, it is very exciting in symphonic music, although not practised by all. Think of Bud Herseth riding on the orchestra, definitely sizzling on high notes. These days, Gabor Tarkövi in Berlin Phil definitely sizzles on loud passages, always distinctly heard above the other 100 players!

Actually, the same holds for large baroque works such as Magnificat or B-minor mass, where first trumpet has to project and sizzle some on the highest notes. Players such as Mark Bennett do that admirably, even on solo literature (example in mind is his Fasch concerto CD).

I think that to sizzle you need extreme efficiency, hitting the resonance of the notes dead on, so as to have both meat and higher overtones, which translate into a perceived loudness (Jim Manly does this splendidly). Efficient equipment helps, but efficient tone production is essential.

Cheers,
Pierre
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PC wrote:
I would disagree on that sizzle is unwanted in classical music... Think of Bud Herseth riding on the orchestra, definitely sizzling on high notes.

This reminds me of a recording of the CSO playing Pictures at the BBC Proms in 1981. Bud's playing had bright overtones, almost a sizzle, but also a strong core fundamental. I think that's the difference with orchestral playing: trumpeters sometimes play with bright overtones, but their sound also has a strong fundamental to give it weight. When I think of commercial or big band players who play with sizzle, I imagine a sound that's mostly high overtones and not as much fundamental.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed with the last couple posts - I never want to sacrifice core to gain sizzle. Interesting tidbits from Moore's research, as always!
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