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bassguy
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 Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: Unbranded Chinese flugelhorns vs. Schiller? |
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I just purchased an unbranded Chinese flugelhorn, the only one if its type with a 10.5mm bore. In terms of playability it's commensurate with my skill. In other words it's not an Interbinden or Hub Van Lar, but I'm not Till Broenner or Arturo Sandoval.
After extolling the virtues of El Cheapo flugels in another mouthpisce thread (the 11.66 mm bore Hawk I got was a big bang for the buck, but too big a bore size) the 3rd valve trigger mechanism lost some hardware (I can't find anywhere) & fell apart.(Lol!)
I have contacted the vendor, Joyears pointing out 1) the trigger is dead 2) the second valve slide doesn't seem optimally aligned & is hard to pull out or put back in. 3) the leadpipe foes move freely, pretty stiff. 4) the flugelhorn pictured is black nickel with silver nickel trim but they were selling antique.
I predictably got skepticism. They wanted photos, adamantly claimed the flugel was thoroughly checked out prior to shipment, etc. They instructed me to clean the 2cnd valve slide, when it's obviously an alignment issue. (Obviously it wasn't checked!) They did say they could possibly afford a technition fee, etc etc.
OK, right now I can deal with the stubborn slide & stiff leadpie. The antique finish I prefer over black. The trigger is my main concern. The hardware that was lost was what needs to be taken apart to clean the 3rd valve slide anyway. Should be easily fixed, but no decent techs around here. I guess it comes down to credibility. What next that's working well now (valves?) might go wrong later? (So here it is Guido, fire away with photos or a link!) But certainly this instrument & vendor raises credibility concerns that indicate demanding s full refund.
In the meantime I have looked for other affordable .413" bore flugel. Schiller looks interesting as they have all rose brass instruments. They also have an all copper one, but it doesn't have triggers, just slides. This all copper thing is intriguing. But probably nothing I can try & send back unless it's defective!
I have written on this forum that in a perfect world I'd buy an all copper Calicchio if I had money to burn. This could be a Mini-Me version of a Calicchio. However, I can't get any reviews of Schiller flugels ANYWHERE! One unanswered inquiry here. On Trumpet Master Forum a moderator warns, "Schiller is the cheapest of the cheap", but he's a known cynic.
But how can any company be around for as long & not have any flugelhorn reviews? |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Also whatever .413" bore flugel I get must be compatible with my Yamaha Standard series mouthpieces. Nothing like them, not Curry, nothing! |
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a.kemp
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008
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Location: NYC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:24 am Post subject: |
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If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| a.kemp wrote: | If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
Out of curiousity, I went and looked online for the Doubler and found this:
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-in-antique-lacquer-finish-prototype/
Under $500. Which I'm guessing is more than Bassguy wants to pay. But what I found interesting was the video. I'm not sure how to describe the sound of Trent playing the horn, but it is not what I would want in a flugelhorn. But we are all different. What do you think, Bassguy?
Oh, and it says .415 bore and it takes the larger mouthpieces.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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GuidoCorona
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Joined: 29 May 2014
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Location: Summerville, SC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Hi Richard quite interesting. Actually, the new ACB doubler prototype comes within $50 above the Schiller. As you mentioned, Trents stands squarely behind all products he offers.
Couple of curious things... What is Bronze brass? If it's bronze, the metal alloy would contain Tin... Brass contains Zinc instead.... But Bronze Brass?!
The description mentions a slightly larger bore... But specs talk about a small .415 bore... What is the scoop?
Perhaps Trent can clarify.
G.
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| GuidoCorona wrote: | Hi Richard quite interesting. Actually, the new ACB doubler prototype comes within $50 above the Schiller. As you mentioned, Trents stands squarely behind all products he offers.
Couple of curious things... What is Bronze brass? If it's bronze, the metal alloy would contain Tin... Brass contains Zinc instead.... But Bronze Brass?!
The description mentions a slightly larger bore... But specs talk about a small .415 bore... What is the scoop?
Perhaps Trent can clarify.
G. |
If he puts out a solid product at that price, there is a market for it. But only for the smaller bore, I would think. Anybody want to call him and ask?
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| a.kemp wrote: | If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
Curious, have you owned or played a Schiller?
The doublers bore flugelhorn is too large a bore. What Richard II refers to in his link below looks exactly like the one I have now--& it plays & sounds terrific!
Last edited by bassguy on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | a.kemp wrote: | If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
Out of curiousity, I went and looked online for the Doubler and found this:
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-in-antique-lacquer-finish-prototype/
Under $500. Which I'm guessing is more than Bassguy wants to pay. But what I found interesting was the video. I'm not sure how to describe the sound of Trent playing the horn, but it is not what I would want in a flugelhorn. But we are all different. What do you think, Bassguy?
Oh, and it says .415 bore and it takes the larger mouthpieces. |
OK, I assumed it was a doublers. Does it come in rose brass? |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | a.kemp wrote: | If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
Out of curiousity, I went and looked online for the Doubler and found this:
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-in-antique-lacquer-finish-prototype/
Under $500. Which I'm guessing is more than Bassguy wants to pay. But what I found interesting was the video. I'm not sure how to describe the sound of Trent playing the horn, but it is not what I would want in a flugelhorn. But we are all different. What do you think, Bassguy?
Oh, and it says .415 bore and it takes the larger mouthpieces. |
OMG. This looks EXACTLY like what I just got. (Guido, please give the link to us). It has a beel, not quite 6".
The "bronze brass finish is cosmetic folks. Its a brushed brass, with black nickel sprayed here & there. NTW. My horn plays very nicely too (except for the trigger).It stands to reason that if my existing horn was slightly modified (hardware, valve springs, etc) it could be the same thing. Trent DOES get unbranded Chinese horns, as does Dillon, then they are dressed up & sold for about $200 more.
Seriously, Has anyone here actually played both the Schiller rose brass studio artist flugel & this? |
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GuidoCorona
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Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 377
Location: Summerville, SC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Bassguy,the flugel you purchased fromJoyear on ebay is probably this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252347977890
I do not believe it is the same sold by ACB... For one thing, yours seems to have a .413 bore, while the new ACB prototype is .415. Knowing Trent, whatever the original stock Chinese instrument was, it is likely modified/enhanced quite a bit by the time it reaches the ACB shop... And even more by the time it leaves the ACB shop on its way to an end user. Besides, there is no telling what factories these eBay Chinese instruments originated.
Guido
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Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| GuidoCorona wrote: | Hi Bassguy,the flugel you purchased fromJoyear on ebay is probably this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252347977890
I do not believe it is the same sold by ACB... For one thing, yours seems to have a .413 bore, while the new ACB prototype is .415. Knowing Trent, whatever the original stock Chinese instrument was, it is likely modified/enhanced quite a bit by the time it reaches the ACB shop... And even more by the time it leaves the ACB shop on its way to an end user. Besides, there is no telling what factories these eBay Chinese instruments originated.
Guido |
I have my eye on the Schiller Studio Artist flugelhorn. I do want to confirm from Jim Laabs if it's Ross brass as described, or yellow as pictured.
It would be nice to try out both the Trent Austin & Schiller. Van get pricey for return shipping cists. |
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TrentAustin
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Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 5485
Location: KC MO
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | a.kemp wrote: | If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
Out of curiousity, I went and looked online for the Doubler and found this:
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-in-antique-lacquer-finish-prototype/
Under $500. Which I'm guessing is more than Bassguy wants to pay. But what I found interesting was the video. I'm not sure how to describe the sound of Trent playing the horn, but it is not what I would want in a flugelhorn. But we are all different. What do you think, Bassguy?
Oh, and it says .415 bore and it takes the larger mouthpieces. |
We are more than happy to answer any questions via email (info@austincustombrass.com) but here's a bit more info:
The bell is a 85% copper/bronze bell. While these are prototypes (we actually have a few more coming back from trials I sent to some friends to test) we are slowly moving from our old .433 models to a smaller .415 (a wee bit bigger than the classic bore of most flugs). We have placed a large order of the 85% copper belled horns that will be coming in sometime in September.
As a reminder we do many modifications to every doubler model we sell including full PVA, new mouthpipe, all upgraded springs, felts,corks, thorough professional cleaning (you should see how some of our doublers arrive before we work on them), and more we do not divulge publicly.
Cheers,
T
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http://austincustombrass.biz
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This acct will be deactivated as of March 2021. email info@austincustombass.com |
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GuidoCorona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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This is very interesting Trent...
Are you saying that your new flugels contain no zinc, but Tin is used instead in the bell alloy?
What are the salient characteristics/advantages of bronze over brass in this application?
Saluti, Guido
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TrentAustin
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Joined: 06 Nov 2002
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Location: KC MO
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| GuidoCorona wrote: | This is very interesting Trent...
Are you saying that your new flugels contain no zinc, but Tin is used instead in the bell alloy?
What are the salient characteristics/advantages of bronze over brass in this application?
Saluti, Guido |
This sadly is beyond my full understanding of the compositional elements but I can ask. All I can say is that for 6 years I have been trying to get a copper bell on my doublers and this new company I am using and their quality is incredible.
Best,
T
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http://austincustombrass.biz
http://trentaustinmusic.com
http://instagram.com/austincustombrass
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GuidoCorona
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Location: Summerville, SC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm... Ever more fasinating, Trent!
Any plans per chance of introducing also a flug 4-valver from the same source?
Saluti, e buone cose! G.
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TrentAustin
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GuidoCorona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Trent, I sent you a PM. G.
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TrentAustin wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | a.kemp wrote: | If you're looking for an inexpensive option which will be backed up by someone who is quite credible and provide you a true working instrument, get an ACB doubler from Trent Austin. Definitely under $700 and plays well!
Much better quality than a Schiller or comparable horn. Also, it IS checked before sent out. And has a nice trigger.
I played a bunch of recitals on mine and it never let me down.... |
Out of curiousity, I went and looked online for the Doubler and found this:
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/acb-doublers-flugelhorn-in-antique-lacquer-finish-prototype/
Under $500. Which I'm guessing is more than Bassguy wants to pay. But what I found interesting was the video. I'm not sure how to describe the sound of Trent playing the horn, but it is not what I would want in a flugelhorn. But we are all different. What do you think, Bassguy?
Oh, and it says .415 bore and it takes the larger mouthpieces. |
We are more than happy to answer any questions via email (info@austincustombrass.com) but here's a bit more info:
The bell is a 85% copper/bronze bell. While these are prototypes (we actually have a few more coming back from trials I sent to some friends to test) we are slowly moving from our old .433 models to a smaller .415 (a wee bit bigger than the classic bore of most flugs). We have placed a large order of the 85% copper belled horns that will be coming in sometime in September.
As a reminder we do many modifications to every doubler model we sell including full PVA, new mouthpipe, all upgraded springs, felts,corks, thorough professional cleaning (you should see how some of our doublers arrive before we work on them), and more we do not divulge publicly.
Cheers,
T |
Shoot, gotta wait till September? |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TrentAustin wrote: | | GuidoCorona wrote: | Hmmm... Ever more fasinating, Trent!
Any plans per chance of introducing also a flug 4-valver from the same source?
Saluti, e buone cose! G. |
No plans at all. I have yet to play a 4 valve design that is even passable.
T |
OK here is where I stand. Although my unbranded plays well, sounds excellent for $280, having the thing fall apart in my hands in 48 hours doesn't inspire confidence. The vendor told me they could possibly pay for a repair. But I have to drive 100 miles round trip to get an estimate on fixing the trigger, & possibly changing the crook angle of the second valve slide so it goes in & out easier. Obviotdly they lie when they claim they "thorougjly " check it out before shipping. Even if they pay for the repair, what next? Soldering joints, valves?
For that reason I decided to purchase/order this Trent Austin flugelhorn for $479. It looks the same (mine is so compact in feel, almost like a cornet) but parts, hardware, valves aligned, etc, etc, aren't going to be problematic. Who know, maybe this will sound markedly better. (The demo recording sounded fat & deep, maybe indicatative of a deeper mouthpiece, but mostly a better player). Problem! I couldn't prepay or order. I do want to make the purchase (& comlarison) move on & play. I have no idea what the time frame can be.
As for Schiller? Attractive features. The Studio Artist flugel is presumably rose brass all over (except valve blocks) with a large 6 1/4" bell. Potentially a nice warm diffuse sound, though the shape if the instrument's not compact.. Many, many red flags here though. I called Jim Laabs in Wisconsin about basic features such as mouthpiece shank & to confirm the rose brass thing (pictured is yellow) & the flugelhorn expert (Troy) said he had to call the factory to find out!
Question: am I being a jerk by making a fuss (& sending back as defective) about the trigger & slide? Estimate for fixing trigger is $15. No estimate on the 2cnd valve slide until seen. But it can still be pulled out & reinserted for cleaning--just a pain doing it. The valves & lead pipe will move freely after an abrasive treatment. I don't want poor Lily (the vendor rep in China) to become an unwiiling organ donor,.... I'm just saying! |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Question: am I being a jerk by making a fuss (& sending back as defective) about the trigger & slide? Estimate for fixing trigger is $15. No estimate on the 2cnd valve slide until seen. But it can still be pulled out & reinserted for cleaning--just a pain doing it. The valves & lead pipe will move freely after an abrasive treatment. I don't want poor Lily (the vendor rep in China) to become an unwiiling organ donor,.... I'm just saying! |
Poorly made is poorly made. Send it back. Get a refund. Buy something better.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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