Compression??

[Rod Haney]

I have some questions about the use of the word compression as used in trumpet playing.
I understand that air can be compressed and that water resists compression much more. But how do our weak meat machines compress this air? It seems to me that we accelerate the air much more than compress it, or are we describing the feeling we get when push against a horn with no air moving inside?
I'm not a student of physiology and I'm not sure my thinking is correct, but I am finding that I have more support for high notes when I think accelerate vs. compress. I seem to have some success in working to clear obstructions in throat and tongue but I cant figure a way to compress and make the pressure higher in any significant way. I have been trying to expand my range since I started playing again 30 months ago and can count on a hi e-f and can sound to dbl. c but without the strength I would want to have to say I could use it. I also cannot connect these notes above hi e-f in scales and musical passages. I have had Abdominal Aneurysm repair and using great levels of strain pushing air will not serve me well at all, so I am hoping to get some more info from players of the non-beet red face to give me some insight. I have worked a bit with Jim Manley and found a lot of control and a much richer sound above the staff, but above hi-g its not coming so fast. I'm not hung up on having a much higher range but would like to have all I can get and I'm currently hung up on velocity vs. compression. Can someone give me an explanation?
Rod

[mm55]

"Compression", as used in trumpet discussions, is a whole gallon-sized can of wriggling worms. The word is used with at least seven different meanings, some of them mutually incompatible. Some of these meanings are used in technical contexts, while other are used in contexts that rely on non-science, bad science, and pseudo-science. Unless the terms are clearly defined, the word can be less than useful. And even when the terms are defined, the "technical" basis can be absurdly incorrect. Some people in these parts may go ballistic at the suggestion that their phony physics is bad science. Others may discount the notion that accurate scientific understanding is even relevant. Others may simply drop names of famous players or pedagogues, as if those names magically make compression happen when there is no evidence of any kind of compression.

Be forewarned!
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[Rod Haney]

[dstdenis]

One can get tripped up on the terminology, esp. whether the air is compressed, moving faster, whether one's pushing the air with the diaphragm or with the abdominal muscles and chest muscles, etc. I think it's safer to say that, in order to play high notes well above the staff, the trumpeter needs to use air power.

Thomas Moore explained why in his ITG Journal articles. When playing in the staff, the trumpet provides feedback to the lips in the form of acoustic impedance, which helps make the lips vibrate. When playing well above the staff, though, there isn't much impedance, and the trumpeter has to work a lot harder to provide the air power necessary to get and keep the lips vibrating that high pitch (and the overtones to make it sound good).

I think the best demonstration of this I've seen is Lynn Nicholson's video, Got High Notes? (He rents it for a fee on Vimeo.) He does a great job explaining and demonstrating how he uses incredible air power to play way, way up there (though I wouldn't advise it for anyone with medical issues like hernias, etc.).

It's also worth a mention that not all trumpet playing requires such incredible air power. Jim Pandolfi did a Monster Oil Brasschats video in which he said, "If you blow, you suck!" — a catchy tip to remind his students that applying too much air power can cause them to miss the sweet spot of resonance in their sound.
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[MF Fan]

It may not be 100% accurate from a physics standpoint, but I've always thought of it as: If you place the air in your lungs under pressure it will move more quickly through an aperture than it would if it wasn't under pressure. Different people use different visualizations to achieve the same end, e.g. faster air. How do you make air move faster? Put it under pressure. I believe that is the purpose of using the wedge-breath.

Speaking of Lynn, here's a good demonstration on how to create compression:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fviXbWYvaZc

Seems to work well for him.
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[stumac]

Using a 1/8" tube inserted through one corner of the mouth and a precision pressure gauge I have measured the minimum air pressure required to sustain a note on several players, not a large sample at this stage but shows similarity, below this pressure the note drops out or to the next lower partial.

Low C 5" water gauge,
Third space C 12" w.g.
High C 30" w.g. Which is around 1 psi.

Extrapolating I expect Double C to take around 75" w.g. or 2-1/2 psi.

Regards, Stuart.

[John Mohan]

[Rod Haney]

John
Thanks for the warning, this is a serious concern and after you hit 50 and if you have ANY family history of serious vascular issues you should get yourself checked as if a serious issue happens you can certainly die very quickly. Luckily we had been watching the issue and as soon as a solution to stent multiple aortic arterys came about my surgeon corrected the problem - he invented the procedure and stent. He assures me than only a mechanical pump could blow this patch. Problem is that who knows where other weaknesses exist!
And that brings me to my quest for understanding compression as the term is generally or specifically used.
And while I'm on the hi note forum Ill post what Ive been doing and ask for some feedback. Since picking up trumpet after 47 yrs. Ive been looking for a way to do it easier than I did it back when - knew 2 real meat eater pros - Larry Ford and Bill Chase. Bill blew his head off and you thought strokes were on the way. Larry never looked out of control or like it was a huge strain. Both these guys had legendary chops and did it differently. I wanted easy, saw leads on internet, took some lessons and learned a great deal from Jim Manley, and generally looked for techniques that didn't quite depend entirely on air power. Well I found out that you gotta have it all. I started working on Bill Knevitt and got some good exercises and techniques for building all the things necessary. Then found the Knevitt/Chimera book and everything I had learned so far and especially enforced by Manley was there with another method I liked to achieve it. Chimera concentrates on appeture and tongue level so that the player will not be so dependent on wind and pressure. After 2 months of working this with some Manley stuff what I could hit 2months ago (hi-f and g) are sooo much stronger and repeatable than before. I'm starting to know where they are and play them much longer into my practice and the volume is there without the huffing. Doesn't it make sense that it is easier to accelerate a smaller area of lip (appeture) to x # of cycles per minute than it does a larger appeture? I am getting so much stronger that it is difficult to believe it isn't true. You do get very tired doing a full set of this and another range exercise, but the corners and surety of attack seem worth it. And I really feel that I will have a real dbl. c in 6 months. Learning how to max 'compression or wind speed would help too!! Also have to do a bit of flexibility stuff or corners will overdevelop he says.
Please comment, I spend quite a bit of time practicing, but at 66 I dont have time to waste and I'm hungry to eat meat again!!
Rod

[razeontherock]

Compression cannot be created higher than what we achieve with our lungs, but we can certainly reduce it, fighting ourselves. The real trick is keeping that pressure in the mouth, and controlling it there.

[Rod Haney]

Yes I'm feeling that a lot can be controlled here. Still got to pump but do it as effeciently as possible. Hard to explain but I seem to be working on support and blowing thru than blowing hard. Something about the word hard just doesn't fit my retirement plans.
Rod

[Rod Haney]

[bg]

[dstdenis]

post removed.
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[Rod Haney]

[Rod Haney]

Please excuse this last post as I now see the poster removed comments vs. moderator and we all have every right to edit ourselves - and in my case I should more often.
Apologies
Rod

[MrOlds]

Anyway back to the question about compression and air pressure. John Mohan points out above that a full power double C might require 4 psi. I’m wondering if that’s really a huge amount of pressure.

The air around us is at roughly 14 psi. When we fill our lungs the air comes out naturally without pushing because the air pressure inside us is greater than the air pressure outside us. Greater than 14psi. Realistically how much do we really have to push or muscle up the psi in order to play?

If you have ever had kids or if you’ve ever been a kid you’ll remember the sound of blood curdling shrieks in the double C range as they run and play. All that from kids weighing 45 pounds or so with tiny vocal chords having little or no muscular strength. I’m pretty sure they aren’t thinking about compression or wedge breathing or rolling in/out or toungue arch

How is it so easy for them to do that and such a challenge for us to get our lips to flap like their vocal chords when we put our lips in contact with an open tube?

[rothman]

The view on abdominal supported air pressure and p.s.i. is interesting, but few mention that the idea of overblowing from a breathing apparatus is considered counterproductive and avoided by some.

Well known today is a school of thought that promotes notion of compressing air in the mouth. Having the tongue thrust across the teeth, the air is having to work it's way > up and over, supercharged into the cup.. Conversely, C.G's arching of the tongue further back in the mouth is somewhat related to this.

In other words, a question remains whether air in the mouth 'compresses' to some important amount or barely measurable, when a venturi effect takes shape.

[stumac]

A Systolic blood pressure of 150mm of mercury considered to be on the high side of normal = 2.90 pounds/square inch, any forced lung pressure above this will cause the blood to cease flowing into the lungs causing oxygen starvation and eventually blackout. The only way to increase pressure over atmosphere is with forced expiration with the abdominal muscles.

With normal breathing the oral air pressure varies in the region + - 2" water gauge. Altering the volume of the mouth by raising the tongue cannot increase air pressure unless the glottle folds are closed cutting off the connection to the lungs.

My previous post shows average minimum oral pressure measured to maintain three Cs, what really matters is the ENERGY of the airstream to commence and maintain the standing wave in the horn.

Regards, Stuart.

[Rod Haney]

Thank you for addressing "compression" vs. other controversial issues.

I have some experience building and racing highly turbocharged engines. These engines built compression very quickly and violently. Often going from -4 lbs vacuum to 37 lbs positive in less than a second. That going from vacuum to over 2 bars of pressure almost instantly. This is over the normal 14.7 lbs pressure the atmosphere is at sea level. This (the air pressurization from the turbo not normal piston compression) is equivalent to what would be compression of the air in our lungs. We normally plumb this "air in" or charged air in metal or a reinforced silicone- not to have burst strength as to prevent movement that would break the connection by forcing it apart stopping any flow of air. The engine needs this air to burn more fuel. We just need to make the vibrations cycle faster and only the lips need air and not the horn (see mp videos that show tone created with no air). So in cars you need compression of the air to fuel car at higher levels. My real curiosity is what factors influence the lip speed and can one of those factors be improved to reduce the need for another and still achieve the desired result? Some guys can do a hi g from pp to ff at a hi g and above and some can only do it at ff, and some can't do it at all. The guys I want to talk to and learn to be like aren't worried about lbs. of boost! My question - and I'm surprised it's not everyone's big question is what do those who make it look easy do to achieve their results? In high school I was state 440 champ and could hold my breath underwater almost 3 minutes, I was an true athlete and gave up music for it. But even with all that wind the best I ever did was a hi a and only for 1 st set. Now after 50 years of smoking no play for 47 years and general bad habits I have a stronger hi g than then. This development wasn't from my lungs. I'm just hoping to get ideas from people who want development other than adding a turbo so to speak. I would like to see what techniques other than blow more air exist.

BTW - most failures n the turbo systems air delivery system are from hoses/lines being blown off rather than bursting. And are in general designed to do so.... Also its not the buildup of constant pressure that usually causes failure but the sudden transition ( for whatever that pearl has to do with this all). Sorry if I'm talking Greek on cars but it is really a good compare and does point to some other questions.

I often think the best question the range forum could explore is specifics of increasing lip vibration in all areas. It sometimes seems we get tunnel vision and forget that's the only question???
Rod

[John Mohan]