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gunnarerikc
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Joined: 13 Mar 2013
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Location: Costa Mesa, CA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Valve Cleaning Reply with quote

I clean my horn (and valves) on a consistent basis but I have never completely taken apart the valves. Is this a good idea and does anybody do it and get into the guts of it to clean?
Is this something I should let a professional instrument repair guy do?
I don't want to screw up my valves, they tend to be a fairly important part of playing!
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Valve Cleaning Reply with quote

gunnarerikc wrote:
I clean my horn (and valves) on a consistent basis but I have never completely taken apart the valves. Is this a good idea and does anybody do it and get into the guts of it to clean?
Is this something I should let a professional instrument repair guy do?
I don't want to screw up my valves, they tend to be a fairly important part of playing!

Do you mean completely disassemble the valve stems, the spring barrel, etc, or just remove the piston itself when cleaning?

I have never had reason to disassemble the piston, but perhaps I am missing something. We will see what others post.
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gunnarerikc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. I completely disassemble the horn, then there lies the valves...
Never even seen the inside of one and my horn is 40 years old!
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Dennis78
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do occasionally disassemble the valves to clean the springs a guides. Also gives me a chance to lube all those parts and the valve stem threads
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also occasionally disassemble the valves. Recently, I wanted to clean the ports to make them like new, so I researched previous threads on TH and found this that Tony Scodwell recommended, Aug 14, 2011:

"An easy way is this:

1/3 Dawn liquid dish original
2/3 vinegar

"Soak the bare valve for a half hour or so. It won't hurt the piston and the ports should look like new.
Tony Scodwell"

The next day he added: "I buy big jugs of Heinz white vinegar at Costco. Any left over gets used in my "Salsa de Anton"."

Now this is with the felts removed, so you have to dissemble the valves, and I only do the main part of the valves and not the button or stem, although it probably wouldn't damage them....


Last edited by dstpt on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dstpt wrote:
Now this is with the felts removed, so you have to dissemble the valves, and I only do the main part of the valves and not the button or stem, although it probably wouldn't damage them.

On all of my instruments it only requires taking off the valve button, not disassembling the valves.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Dstpt wrote:
Now this is with the felts removed, so you have to dissemble the valves, and I only do the main part of the valves and not the button or stem, although it probably wouldn't damage them.

On all of my instruments it only requires taking off the valve button, not disassembling the valves.


Correct. You don't have to completely dissemble a valve to remove the felt, but I did, because I didn't know how the solution might affect particularly the spring or the plastic valve guide, and I don't find it to be too complicated taking a valve apart. However, I have had to pay close attention when dissembling. There can be distinct valve part differences between B&S, Bach, Yamaha, Getzen, Monette, Conn, Schilke, Kanstul, Adams, et al, and you can easily end up going through some trial and error. I have. Ugh.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure you use white vinegar...
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gunnarerikc
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for the info.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Make sure you use white vinegar...


Yes, white vinegar was something Tony Scodwell clarified in a follow-up post in 2011...mentioned above.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually remove the valve stem, spring and guide. One reason is that two of my horns have had valve alignments where the top felts and valve alignment spacers are under the buttons; I'd rather not remove the buttons and possibly lose/disturb the spacer(s).

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I usually remove the valve stem, spring and guide. One reason is that two of my horns have had valve alignments where the top felts and valve alignment spacers are under the buttons; I'd rather not remove the buttons and possibly lose/disturb the spacer(s).

Brad

This brings up a good point. I normally set a towel on the counter and put the valve parts in lines so that I can be sure that I put the same buttons, felts, top and bottom caps on them.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I usually remove the valve stem, spring and guide. One reason is that two of my horns have had valve alignments where the top felts and valve alignment spacers are under the buttons; I'd rather not remove the buttons and possibly lose/disturb the spacer(s).

Brad

This brings up a good point. I normally set a towel on the counter and put the valve parts in lines so that I can be sure that I put the same buttons, felts, top and bottom caps on them.


Forgot to mention that, but that is exactly what I do, especially with the horns that have had valve alignments. Good point, friends.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Rot is the loss of zinc in brass leaving copper behind and the copper is porous when the zinc has gone. This is not a good state for brass to be in and is to be avoided.

The problem is that zinc is more reactive than copper and will even leach into water, however it does this very gradually. The higher the concentration of zinc in the brass the more the leaching will occur which is why some manufacturers are more prone to red rot than others. Different manufacturers use different brasses.

Vinegar has been recommended to clean valves. I disagree with this advice. Vinegar attacks zinc and rapidly dissolves zinc from out of brass. There is no good reason in my opinion to bring vinegar into contact with any brass part of a musical instrument.

Valves are made so that moisture and liquid outside can get inside them through breathing holes. Also many valves have a coating laid down on top of brass. If vinegar gets inside a brass valve I can foresee it attacking the valve dissolving the zinc in the brass from the inside and eventually leaving a porous copper shell behind.

As I understand it monel valves and nickel valves are both brass valves but with thick layers of either monel or nickel coated on the brass. I dont think stainless steel valves are at risk but I wouldnt take the risk on this as any exposed brass could be attacked.

I would imagine that its not too late to stop using vinegar to clean valves so I recommend that you consider a different and less virulent cleaning strategy.
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stumac
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Tony Scodwell uses white vinegar that is good enough for me, some years ago on reading of using white vinegar for cleaning trumpets I took an old tuning slide and put one leg in a glass of white vinegar and left it in for 24 hours, other than a slight green tinge in the vinegar and the leg brighter I could not see any surface degregation at 400x with my microscope.

White vinegar is drinkable, I would not like to drink the brew of Citric and Phosphoric acid my tech uses.

Regards, Stuart.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too trust Tony, but I did a little googlefoo and found there are people who agree with Bflatman.

Many of us don't realize that the pistons are hollow. If you do soak your pistons in any chemical or acid, like vinegar, it is probably a good idea to make sure you rinse out the inside of the piston to remove the solution.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Red Rot is the loss of zinc in brass leaving copper behind and the copper is porous when the zinc has gone. This is not a good state for brass to be in and is to be avoided.

The problem is that zinc is more reactive than copper and will even leach into water, however it does this very gradually. The higher the concentration of zinc in the brass the more the leaching will occur which is why some manufacturers are more prone to red rot than others. Different manufacturers use different brasses.

Vinegar has been recommended to clean valves. I disagree with this advice. Vinegar attacks zinc and rapidly dissolves zinc from out of brass. There is no good reason in my opinion to bring vinegar into contact with any brass part of a musical instrument.

Valves are made so that moisture and liquid outside can get inside them through breathing holes. Also many valves have a coating laid down on top of brass. If vinegar gets inside a brass valve I can foresee it attacking the valve dissolving the zinc in the brass from the inside and eventually leaving a porous copper shell behind.

As I understand it monel valves and nickel valves are both brass valves but with thick layers of either monel or nickel coated on the brass. I dont think stainless steel valves are at risk but I wouldnt take the risk on this as any exposed brass could be attacked.

I would imagine that its not too late to stop using vinegar to clean valves so I recommend that you consider a different and less virulent cleaning strategy.


So what would you recommend we use to clean the valve ports, and is there a way to safely remove the discoloration? Would Simple Green work? I understand it's biodegradable and reputedly environmentally safe, but would it make the valves look new, or is getting the valves to look new again a mere pipe dream? When I'm cleaning the valve ports and they continue to appear discolored, I cannot tell by looking at them if they are fully clean. Or is this the type of cleaning that requires chemicals that can only be handled by repair facilities where they can dispose of the excess according to proper environmental restrictions? IOW, is there a do-it-yourself hack for us professionals and amateurs to bring-back-the-new-again look? My experience over the past two years has been that the brass repair guys are swamped with band instruments year round, and I feel that we should be able to take care of this kind of thing at home, no?
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stumac
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For routine cleaning I use warm water with a little dishwashing liquid, if done regularly there is no need for anything more.

For old horns that need something more aggressive I use a 5% CLR, one litre bottle of CLR in 20 litres of water, usually soak for 1/2 hour, brush out and soak again if necessary, flush after with plenty of clean water. I have by mistake left slides in the CLR overnight with no observable effect.

Some staining in the valve ports is only a surface oxide which will protect the parent metal to some degree, keeping them bright and shiny will not improve the playability.

Regards, Stuart.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumac wrote:
For routine cleaning I use warm water with a little dishwashing liquid, if done regularly there is no need for anything more.

For old horns that need something more aggressive I use a 5% CLR, one litre bottle of CLR in 20 litres of water, usually soak for 1/2 hour, brush out and soak again if necessary, flush after with plenty of clean water. I have by mistake left slides in the CLR overnight with no observable effect.

Some staining in the valve ports is only a surface oxide which will protect the parent metal to some degree, keeping them bright and shiny will not improve the playability.

Regards, Stuart.


So glad you posted this, Stuart. I am trying to help an older gentleman sell his vintage horns and we'd like to clean them up a bit. The CLR route looks like a viable one. My questions about making the valve ports look new, and how practical that might be, is more from a cosmetic standpoint. I know it won't help the playability. My experience has also been that pictures of valves removed that appear "shiny" seem to sell easier. Some know it won't make a difference, and some think (maybe even subconsciously) that it does. My question remains: Is there a way to make the ports look new without damaging them?
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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently acquired a used horn and I disassembled the valves completely and gave them a good cleaning. I'm glad I did because I found that apparently the top valve buttons had become set to fit their respective valve because they would not seat all the way down on different ones. Once I got everything where it should be my horn sounded like it should. I'm guessing the previous owner didn't catch this because the second valve wasn't lining up in the full down position because of it.

JJ
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