Valve Cleaning

Bflatman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720

I am not saying that I know best how to clean valves but simply that chemically vinegar appears to degrade the brass by reacting with zinc and possibly accelerating the red rot phenomena.

I too am at a loss as to how to clean valves so they look like new, but is this a desirable thing anyway. I dont mind my valves looking a little dirty with a patina on them as long as the important bits, the valve surface that slides in the casing is clean.

I personally would trust the chemicals that techs use rather than a home DIY solution, They know what they are doing more than I do.

On the other hand I would love to hear of a home DIY solution that is both effective and safe to use. Sadly vinegar doesnt look to be that solution.

I should add that I have tested white vinegar to see if it dissolved zinc from the brass some time ago, I immersed a small piece of brass in vinegar. In approximately 10 minutes the brass became very clean, however the surface became redder than it originally had been and much redder than brass usually is.

I took this to be an indication that there was a much greater amount of copper on the surface than expected. Zinc turns red copper to a golden yellow so a red colour suggests loss of zinc.

This result worried me enough to stop me using vinegar on my own gear.

stumac · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject:

I use a lot of white vinegar to de-rust iron and steel components, I find differences in activity depending from which supermarket chain I purchase it from, I suspect it is watered down to cheapen the price.

The Eric Brand Instrument Repair Manual uses Muratic (Hydrochloric) Acid for cleaning brass instruments which is more reactive than vinegar.

Take your horn to a tech and it is probably better not to know what it has been bathed in.

A friend took his raw brass Alexander french horn to a local "tech" for a service, it came back a beautiful shade of pink, I do not know if this was de-zincification or chemical deposition of copper due to a stale bath that had been used many times, I suspect the latter as it soon wore off.

I shall repeat my slide test with a branded vinegar and see if the results differ.

Regards, Stuart.

ghelbig · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject:

ConAlba · New Member Joined: 22 Oct 2015 Posts: 8 Location: Scotland

I use isopropyl alcohol

Ronnie

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287

ConAlba · New Member Joined: 22 Oct 2015 Posts: 8 Location: Scotland

No, it just cleans and degreases thoroughly [good if you're changing to a different valve oil for instance], it doesn't strip anything though.

yourbrass · Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:50 am Post subject:

Isopropyl alcohol will clean and not hurt anything. Any sort of acid, (vinegar, muriatic, etc.) represents a risk if it isn't killed properly. A soapy water-baking soda solution is what I use. The player cleaning the horn at home doesn't need acid - elbow grease is far preferable.
-Lionel
_________________
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287

Revisiting this thread from almost a year ago. Decided to use some Brasso on the valve ports and top sections of the valves to brighten the brass. It works. Not quite like new, but no longer dingy-looking ports and tops. Just be careful not to rub any Brasso on the Monel section, obviously. Mask it off with painter's tape, if you feel you might. I used Q-Tips for the ports and a soft cloth on the tops, and yes, I completely dissembled the valves but was careful to place the felts in a logical order to the side before starting.

cbtj51 · Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:49 am Post subject:

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287

No, but I've used this, which seems to help...

http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/clean-stroke-valve-wash

cbtj51 · Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:32 pm Post subject:

cbtj51 · Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject:

dstpt,

Sorry for the 40 questions approach! I really have a need to use on a horn that has been in storage for a while and really needs some serious valve cleaning to get to a reasonable starting point. I am open to consider any and all suggestions.

Kindest regards,

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287

cbtj51 · Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:39 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the reply dstpt!

The valves in question are on an Olds Ambassador Cornet from the 60s that a friend gave me in the early 80s. I have never played it and for that matter, it has not seen the light of day in many years until recently. It appears to have many young student miles on it but the valves still work very sluggishly even with a light oiling. There is a gummy deposit that appears similar to cosmoline all over and it does not seem to want to come off very easily. I would like to see if I could get this horn in action so that I can donate it to the thrift store associated with our local Rescue Mission if it is worth moving along. I just don't wish to add to any damage that might already be present.

Your answers are most appreciated.

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287

cbtj51 · Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:31 am Post subject:

dstpt,

Thanks for the detailed insight. I will try the Simple Green approach this afternoon.

Much appreciation,

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces

Manuel de los Campos · Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:01 am Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:32 am Post subject:

For what it's worth, I asked Zig Kanstul if it would hurt my Benge valve pistons, if I soaked them in white vinegar. He kind of chuckled and said something like, "Well..., it certainly won't hurt them." I think his unspoken opinion was that it was a waste of time, because the vinegar wasn't strong enough to actually do anything.

I wanted it to remove the buildup from the valve oil I had been using and it did that. It also brightened up the bare brass of the port tubes and spring barrels a bit.

As an aside, instruments are routinely submersed in chemicals that dissolve solder after assembly in order to remove the excess. That is one of the things that "acid bleed" is from. I cannot imagine a little vinegar would compare to that.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

JoeLoeffler · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243

Why do all of these valve parts need to be shiny - particularly to sell horns? I am certainly less interested in horns that have “suspiciously shiny” parts on them. (Shiny inside slide tubes, valve windways, etc.) Keep your horns clean. Let the parts be oxidized the way they naturally get in normal (well-maintained) use. It will be fine. Go practice.

shofarguy · Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: